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Dear Charlie,
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apologies for not writing
back to you sooner.
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I'm happy to open up to you,
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and welcome the sentence
I'm about to receive.
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I've made so many mistakes in my life
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through deception, secrecy,
and self-sabotage.
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The worst of all is the crime
that I killed my parents.
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I knew, even as a child,
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that I should not have been
a part of that family.
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And I thought about killing myself
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before I thought about killing
my parents.
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I thought that I had no choice.
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I do not wish to receive any payments
for giving my side of events.
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I would just like a chance to
have a say,
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amongst all others.
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A woman from Essex
has been charged
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with killing two people
believed to be her parents.
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The most unlikely person to be
a murderess.
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No one really knew
too much about her, to be honest.
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She was weird at school,
but not like murder your parents
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and hide their bodies weird.
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I kept on calling out for my father
to see if he was alive,
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and part of me wanted him
to reply to me.
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Four years ago, Ginny popped up.
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After that, we didn't see
her parents anymore.
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Killing your own parents
is extremely rare,
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especially from a female.
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What on earth drove her to
do something so appalling?
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I felt emotionally desperate
and trapped.
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I did not want to be stuck in misery.
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For her to have done that,
something bad had happened,
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something had driven her to it.
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Something was going on
behind closed doors
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that we just didn't know about.
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She was a bit of a fantasist
with some of the things
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that she used to say to us.
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I was relieved in a huge way
that the deception was over.
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You question whether
anything was true about her life.
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I have no reason to lie now,
as there is no point.
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The road that led me
to commit the crime
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is one which I think should be got
first-hand.
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I think it is important
to allow Virginia to give her say,
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because I think the question
of why she did what she did
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hasn't been answered.
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What I don't know is how truthful
and honest she'll be.
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Ginny?
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The footage of Virginia's arrest
is extremely unusual
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because, first of all,
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most perpetrators
don't want to incriminate themselves.
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But this appears to be
the exact opposite
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of what happens with Ginny.
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00:04:04,931 --> 00:04:07,413
Secondly, at no point
does she attempt to deny
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murdering both of the parents.
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And shockingly, she seems to have
no problem admitting
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she continued living in the house
with their bodies.
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And that begs the question, why?
Why did she do this?
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Essex Police say a woman's
been arrested on suspicion of murder
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after police were called
to Great Baddow near Chelmsford.
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The force says officers responded to
concerns about the welfare
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of two people, and an address
in Pump Hill yesterday afternoon.
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I was the first journalist
on the ground.
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And when I turned up at the scene,
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there was an officer stood
guarding the entrance
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to the back garden of the property.
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And one stood at the
front door as well.
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And then there was a large police van
parked up on the front drive.
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I'm Matt Lee.
I'm a reporter from Essex Live.
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And as the only reporter
on shift that day,
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I was sent by my editor
down to the scene.
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Members of the public were wondering
what had gone on,
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they were wondering who was involved,
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they were wondering why
the police were all there.
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Great Baddow's a quiet village
just outside Chelmsford.
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It's a sleepy area.
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Nothing really happens there.
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The main feeling and emotion
was one of surprise.
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I just turned the corner,
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and there was police,
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there was press,
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there was people walking round
in white sort of zip-up suits
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and masks and gloves.
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I thought it was Ginny.
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I was like, "Oh, my God.
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Oh, my God, she's dead."
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And I was dialling her number
and dialling her number,
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I was like, "Oh, my God,
please be okay, please answer."
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I was saying to people, I was going,
"Oh, my God,
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what's happened? What's happened?"
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And it wasn't till a little bit later
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that people were saying...
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she'd murdered someone.
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A woman from Essex
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has been charged with
killing two people
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believed to be her parents.
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Russell Hookey is in Chelmsford
for us.
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A lot of details
still remain unclear, Russell.
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Very much so.
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This is the house behind me
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where police have focused
their attention.
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Thirty-five-year-old
Virginia McCullough
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is charged with murdering
John and Lois McCullough,
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her parents.
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Neighbours here say all three
lived in this house.
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When I turned up at the house,
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it became clear to me that
there was far more to this story
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than I'd initially suspected.
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In the discussions I
had with neighbours,
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it became clear quite early on
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that it wasn't perhaps what
you might think of
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as a loving conventional family.
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It seemed that John,
Virginia's father,
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was a university lecturer.
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He occupied part of the house.
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The rest of the family occupied
another part.
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It seems this was a family
that functioned
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but perhaps there wasn't
very much love
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between him and his children.
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He lived with his wife, Lois.
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They had several daughters,
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including one, Virginia,
who lived with them at home.
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But there was no suggestion
that Virginia
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had had prior contact
with the police.
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So, there was this disconnect
between this seemingly
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quiet daughter
who lived with her parents
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and a supposedly
cold-blooded murderess.
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I was shocked, absolutely shocked.
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Because, well, John and Lois were
customers of ours for many years.
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I'm Alan Thompson.
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I've got an electronic shop
in Great Baddow.
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And I've been here since the 1970s.
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So, yeah, part of the furniture now.
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John and Lois rented equipment
from us.
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But I couldn't say I knew
much about them personally.
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They were not...
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people that you would call social.
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Yeah, unusual customers,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Lois used to come into the shop
once a month with her payment book
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and make payments for the equipment.
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Very serious, very quiet,
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subdued, withdrawn.
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Absolutely no casual talk at all.
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I never managed to get her to smile
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or have a conversation
about the family.
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John was different.
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He was a very curt, very brusque man.
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I found him fairly impatient,
always in a hurry.
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You'd say goodbye,
he wouldn't normally reply,
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he'd just walk out.
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I was aware there were four
or five daughters,
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and I've heard rumours in the village
that it was a strict regime
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at home for the girls.
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And I think that's the reason
why they,
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as soon as they could leave home,
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did leave and make their own way.
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I believe that Ginny
left home as well
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and lived somewhere else,
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I think in Chelmsford somewhere.
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But for some reason came back
to live with her parents.
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I don't know when.
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In fact, walking past
her house one day,
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I was surprised to see her there,
and not her parents.
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Ginny was very easy to talk to.
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A slightly unusual girl.
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But since it's happened,
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it's made me think, really,
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that you don't know what people
are like in their private lives.
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Ginny had moved away
when we first got the shop,
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and then she moved back.
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She started coming into the shop,
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and we thought we knew her.
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But obviously there was a different
Ginny that was running around.
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- Alright, love?
- Yeah, alright. Do you want a bag?
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My name's Paul.
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I've been running the greengrocers
in Great Baddow for 22 years.
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00:10:54,724 --> 00:10:56,965
Ginny's mum would come
in quite regular,
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00:10:57,103 --> 00:10:58,275
never really spoke,
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because she was quite a dowdy lady,
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00:11:00,344 --> 00:11:03,103
like with the floral dresses
and the cardigans,
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00:11:03,241 --> 00:11:05,172
and that's how we mainly
used to see her.
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00:11:05,310 --> 00:11:06,724
Never really saw the dad.
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00:11:06,862 --> 00:11:09,448
I think his name was John.
Never really saw him a lot.
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00:11:10,379 --> 00:11:12,758
And then about four years ago,
Ginny popped up.
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00:11:14,068 --> 00:11:15,793
And, you know, when you start...
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when someone comes in
on a regular basis,
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you start talking to them,
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00:11:18,965 --> 00:11:21,285
so we start finding out that
she's living around the corner
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00:11:21,310 --> 00:11:22,827
in her mum and dad's house.
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00:11:22,965 --> 00:11:26,379
And all of us here built up a rapport
with Ginny.
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00:11:27,827 --> 00:11:29,413
She was a bit eccentric.
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00:11:29,655 --> 00:11:31,095
There was always something going on,
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00:11:31,172 --> 00:11:34,827
some sort of drama
or something or other.
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00:11:36,448 --> 00:11:38,965
She never really mentioned
her relationship with her parents.
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00:11:39,103 --> 00:11:43,689
She said that she was back there
to help her parents sell the house.
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00:11:45,068 --> 00:11:47,172
So, she was living there
for a period of time,
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and she'd actually had
people round there
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00:11:50,137 --> 00:11:51,931
just to get it ready for selling.
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00:11:53,931 --> 00:11:56,965
After that, we didn't see
her parents anymore.
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00:12:01,172 --> 00:12:04,172
The arrest had been made
on 15th September,
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00:12:04,310 --> 00:12:06,034
but the information that we knew
at the time
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00:12:06,172 --> 00:12:08,482
was very limited from Essex Police.
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00:12:08,620 --> 00:12:12,310
We had no idea about the methods
in which she'd killed her parents
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00:12:12,448 --> 00:12:13,655
and where she had hidden them.
205
00:12:16,448 --> 00:12:19,172
But then, quite quickly,
there was a picture circulating
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00:12:19,310 --> 00:12:23,103
of a trolley and a body bag
on top of it being removed.
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00:12:23,241 --> 00:12:27,310
So, we knew that they had been
kept within the property.
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00:12:27,965 --> 00:12:29,275
So, you are beginning to wonder
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00:12:29,413 --> 00:12:33,103
what sort of person
is Virginia McCullough going to be?
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00:12:34,758 --> 00:12:35,878
It was just a matter of days
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00:12:36,103 --> 00:12:38,793
before she was making
her first appearance in court.
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00:12:41,724 --> 00:12:43,827
Seeing her for the first time,
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00:12:44,275 --> 00:12:48,068
she was quite calm and
almost quite shy,
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00:12:48,379 --> 00:12:51,655
and she spoke only to
confirm her name.
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00:12:51,793 --> 00:12:53,586
There were very few details,
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00:12:53,724 --> 00:12:57,758
but we learnt for the very first time
the broad timeframe
217
00:12:57,896 --> 00:13:00,965
in which Virginia was accused
of killing her parents.
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00:13:17,862 --> 00:13:21,379
We now knew that Virginia's parents
had not been seen
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00:13:21,517 --> 00:13:24,000
for nearly five years.
220
00:13:25,034 --> 00:13:26,344
Suddenly, you're thinking,
221
00:13:26,482 --> 00:13:31,379
"Wow, Virginia had kept this hidden
for such a long time."
222
00:13:38,103 --> 00:13:40,103
I'm amazed that nobody picked up on
223
00:13:40,241 --> 00:13:43,793
the demise
of Virginia's parents sooner.
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00:13:44,862 --> 00:13:46,310
There'll be people who will think,
225
00:13:46,448 --> 00:13:48,620
"Do you know what,
I had a feeling something was wrong,
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00:13:48,758 --> 00:13:51,241
I hadn't seen the McCulloughs
for some time."
227
00:13:51,379 --> 00:13:54,172
And they'll be wishing that
they'd spoken up.
228
00:13:54,655 --> 00:13:55,689
But they didn't.
229
00:13:57,482 --> 00:14:00,586
My name is Paul Maleary.
I'm a former Essex Police officer.
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00:14:00,724 --> 00:14:03,206
And for 30 years I served
within Essex,
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00:14:03,344 --> 00:14:06,310
and eight years I was on
the major investigation team.
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00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,620
As a young detective
in the early 1990s,
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00:14:09,758 --> 00:14:13,137
I would go to Baddow,
so, I know the area well
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00:14:13,275 --> 00:14:16,137
and I know the community
that actually reside there.
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00:14:16,448 --> 00:14:18,310
It is pure suburbia.
236
00:14:18,448 --> 00:14:22,344
It is the sort of place that
you'd want to bring your kids up in.
237
00:14:23,068 --> 00:14:27,000
These types of crime leave
many questions unanswered.
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00:14:27,206 --> 00:14:29,448
Could the community have done more?
239
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,965
The fact is, that these people
had been missing
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00:14:33,103 --> 00:14:34,793
for some considerable time.
241
00:14:36,379 --> 00:14:40,275
But eventually,
the GP of the local surgery
242
00:14:40,413 --> 00:14:43,862
raised the alarm that the McCulloughs
had failed to meet
243
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,620
several of their medical
appointments.
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00:14:46,758 --> 00:14:49,724
This was then passed on to
the local police
245
00:14:49,862 --> 00:14:52,137
who then carried out the arrest.
246
00:14:59,931 --> 00:15:03,551
The bodycam footage
is quite remarkable.
247
00:15:03,862 --> 00:15:05,448
Virginia wasn't taken by surprise.
248
00:15:05,586 --> 00:15:08,758
In fact, I would say that
she was almost relieved by the fact
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00:15:08,896 --> 00:15:10,620
that they'd gone in there.
250
00:15:10,931 --> 00:15:13,310
And I find it really sad
that these people
251
00:15:13,448 --> 00:15:18,103
have been in their home
dead for years.
252
00:15:19,448 --> 00:15:23,310
Still today I find it
difficult to comprehend or accept,
253
00:15:23,965 --> 00:15:26,482
and it makes me think that
254
00:15:27,034 --> 00:15:29,758
I should have been more questioning
255
00:15:29,896 --> 00:15:32,206
about the sudden disappearance
of them.
256
00:15:33,758 --> 00:15:34,862
When I'd last seen them?
257
00:15:35,137 --> 00:15:37,793
I would think probably
before the first Covid lockdown,
258
00:15:37,931 --> 00:15:40,344
and they were quite hale and hearty.
259
00:15:41,448 --> 00:15:45,413
And then Ginny came into
the shop in '21
260
00:15:46,034 --> 00:15:50,689
and said that the equipment
that we'd supplied to her parents,
261
00:15:51,034 --> 00:15:53,413
she didn't need them anymore,
she wasn't using them.
262
00:15:53,551 --> 00:15:55,931
So, I made an arrangement
263
00:15:56,068 --> 00:15:58,724
for our lads to go round
and collect them.
264
00:15:58,862 --> 00:16:00,068
So, they went round there...
265
00:16:00,586 --> 00:16:03,172
and she'd got them just inside
the front door
266
00:16:03,310 --> 00:16:05,103
and sort of more or less
handed them to them
267
00:16:05,241 --> 00:16:06,655
and they brought them away.
268
00:16:08,655 --> 00:16:10,286
Our technicians were
a little bit surprised
269
00:16:10,310 --> 00:16:12,430
that they hadn't got to go
into the house to get them.
270
00:16:12,482 --> 00:16:14,148
You know, they were just by
the door ready,
271
00:16:14,172 --> 00:16:18,448
but that's the customer's
prerogative, isn't it?
272
00:16:18,586 --> 00:16:20,551
The main thing, I suppose,
273
00:16:20,827 --> 00:16:24,482
that seemed completely strange to me
was I'd say to her,
274
00:16:24,931 --> 00:16:26,275
"How are your parents?"
275
00:16:26,586 --> 00:16:29,275
And she'd say, "Oh, they're fine.
They've moved to Clacton."
276
00:16:31,896 --> 00:16:34,103
When we'd ask
where her parents were,
277
00:16:34,241 --> 00:16:35,896
she said, "Oh, they've
moved to Clacton.
278
00:16:36,034 --> 00:16:37,482
They're having a lovely time."
279
00:16:37,931 --> 00:16:42,551
And there was no reason for us
to disbelieve what she said.
280
00:16:43,275 --> 00:16:44,965
Lots of people move away, you know?
281
00:16:45,103 --> 00:16:46,413
We have it all the time.
282
00:16:46,620 --> 00:16:49,413
So, we never questioned anything
about where her parents were.
283
00:16:49,551 --> 00:16:51,965
When she said that her parents
had just moved away,
284
00:16:54,586 --> 00:17:00,586
I think I should have
asked her more...
285
00:17:00,724 --> 00:17:04,241
but you wouldn't think that
you were chatting to a murderer.
286
00:17:13,758 --> 00:17:15,558
She said they'd packed up
and they'd gone down
287
00:17:15,689 --> 00:17:18,724
to stay with friends in Devon.
288
00:17:19,068 --> 00:17:20,551
And then she'd said another time that
289
00:17:20,689 --> 00:17:23,379
they were staying with people
in Kent.
290
00:17:33,344 --> 00:17:37,379
She didn't talk about her parents
in any depth.
291
00:17:37,517 --> 00:17:40,000
The only thing that
she really told me about them
292
00:17:40,137 --> 00:17:43,586
was when she said that they were
"moving around",
293
00:17:44,034 --> 00:17:48,586
and she was now in charge
of looking after the house,
294
00:17:49,103 --> 00:17:52,206
and doing it up
and preparing it for sale.
295
00:17:52,896 --> 00:17:54,827
She'd say, "Oh,
I've been painting all day,
296
00:17:54,965 --> 00:17:57,137
and I'm doing this to the garden."
297
00:17:57,413 --> 00:18:00,206
She was like telling me that it had
been surveyed,
298
00:18:00,413 --> 00:18:05,241
and that it had real problems,
structurally.
299
00:18:06,206 --> 00:18:07,551
And there was subsidence.
300
00:18:07,689 --> 00:18:10,551
And she said that pipes were leaking,
301
00:18:10,689 --> 00:18:13,275
some of her plug sockets had gone,
302
00:18:13,413 --> 00:18:17,724
and she even said
that it could fall down in 20 years.
303
00:18:19,896 --> 00:18:22,379
She invited me round her home
a lot of times,
304
00:18:22,517 --> 00:18:23,931
but she always cancelled.
305
00:18:25,034 --> 00:18:27,758
She made it seem like it
wasn't particularly safe.
306
00:18:27,896 --> 00:18:30,862
I certainly didn't think
it was because she was hiding
307
00:18:31,137 --> 00:18:32,482
what she was hiding.
308
00:18:35,620 --> 00:18:39,517
There was a huge amount of deception
perpetrated by Virginia
309
00:18:39,655 --> 00:18:42,931
in order to cover up the fact that
she'd murdered her parents.
310
00:18:43,068 --> 00:18:46,000
No one had seen them for some
considerable period of time.
311
00:18:46,137 --> 00:18:49,000
And the local community
were being told by Virginia
312
00:18:49,137 --> 00:18:52,413
that they were away on holiday,
or they had moved away.
313
00:18:53,344 --> 00:18:55,482
But she's got a dilemma.
314
00:18:55,620 --> 00:18:58,103
Here are the two bodies,
what am I going to do with them?
315
00:18:58,413 --> 00:19:02,137
And the disposal of a dead body
is not an easy thing to do.
316
00:19:03,137 --> 00:19:04,241
I'm Simon Dinsdale,
317
00:19:04,379 --> 00:19:06,827
and I spent 27 years as a detective
318
00:19:06,965 --> 00:19:08,241
with Essex Police.
319
00:19:09,275 --> 00:19:12,896
So, in my experience,
the level of sophistication
320
00:19:13,034 --> 00:19:15,896
of this hiding of the bodies,
321
00:19:16,034 --> 00:19:18,758
I can't recall a case like it.
322
00:19:20,655 --> 00:19:24,379
We now know she'd purchased from
a well-known building supplier,
323
00:19:24,517 --> 00:19:28,068
building materials,
breeze blocks and cement,
324
00:19:28,724 --> 00:19:33,103
and she then built this mausoleum
around her father's body.
325
00:19:37,344 --> 00:19:40,310
To answer about some of the materials
in the garden,
326
00:19:40,448 --> 00:19:42,620
I said the garden wall
was being done.
327
00:19:44,103 --> 00:19:48,344
I made a wooden and concrete
block-type enclosed structure
328
00:19:48,482 --> 00:19:50,793
out of my father's original bed.
329
00:19:51,862 --> 00:19:55,206
I put wood at either end
and extra blocks.
330
00:19:57,034 --> 00:19:59,965
I told the next-door neighbour that
I was building a fireplace
331
00:20:00,103 --> 00:20:02,310
to make an excuse for any noise.
332
00:20:04,172 --> 00:20:06,724
She layered plastic
on top of the body,
333
00:20:06,862 --> 00:20:09,172
and then over the top of that was
a blanket,
334
00:20:09,310 --> 00:20:11,862
and she covered that with paintings
and pictures.
335
00:20:15,310 --> 00:20:19,827
She's then rolled her mother's body
into a sleeping bag.
336
00:20:19,965 --> 00:20:23,310
The following day,
I went upstairs and, while crying,
337
00:20:23,448 --> 00:20:26,620
I moved my mother's body into
a four-door wardrobe.
338
00:20:28,482 --> 00:20:30,172
I taped up the gaps in the wardrobe
339
00:20:30,310 --> 00:20:32,862
to get rid of any remaining maggots
or flies
340
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:34,827
that had initially started to appear.
341
00:20:37,448 --> 00:20:41,862
What Virginia did is staggering.
342
00:20:42,758 --> 00:20:47,689
The concept that you could treat
your parents in that way,
343
00:20:48,310 --> 00:20:50,931
first to murder them
and then just to hide them away,
344
00:20:51,068 --> 00:20:52,310
is incredible.
345
00:20:52,965 --> 00:20:56,034
What must she have been feeling
as she's walking round that house
346
00:20:56,172 --> 00:20:58,793
knowing that her parents
are in the next room?
347
00:20:59,379 --> 00:21:01,862
And the fact that she was able
to function like that
348
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:03,862
says a lot to her state of mind.
349
00:21:05,551 --> 00:21:08,551
What on earth drove her
to do something so appalling?
350
00:21:13,379 --> 00:21:18,034
Killing your own parents in itself
obviously is extremely rare.
351
00:21:18,172 --> 00:21:20,758
But what makes it really unique
about this case,
352
00:21:20,896 --> 00:21:22,620
you've got a female perpetrator.
353
00:21:22,862 --> 00:21:25,448
There's no history of violence
or offending,
354
00:21:25,655 --> 00:21:30,758
and she's been in close proximity to
the bodies for almost five years.
355
00:21:32,413 --> 00:21:33,931
My name is Dr Sohom Das.
356
00:21:34,068 --> 00:21:36,379
I'm a consultant forensic
psychiatrist.
357
00:21:36,517 --> 00:21:40,551
And I've psychiatrically analysed
several hundred defendants
358
00:21:40,689 --> 00:21:43,103
who've committed a range
of violent offences.
359
00:21:46,655 --> 00:21:48,310
For many murder cases,
360
00:21:48,620 --> 00:21:51,172
you would expect the perpetrator
to get rid of the body
361
00:21:51,310 --> 00:21:53,724
because they don't want
to incriminate themselves.
362
00:21:53,862 --> 00:21:54,896
Ginny didn't do this.
363
00:21:55,206 --> 00:21:57,896
She kept the bodies for
a long period of time.
364
00:21:58,068 --> 00:21:59,068
So, what is that about?
365
00:21:59,551 --> 00:22:02,103
Is that that she literally
couldn't get over the barrier
366
00:22:02,241 --> 00:22:04,068
of doing it psychologically?
367
00:22:04,206 --> 00:22:06,551
Or is it that she wanted to
keep them close
368
00:22:06,689 --> 00:22:09,000
because she still felt
connected to them?
369
00:22:11,931 --> 00:22:13,034
In a case like this,
370
00:22:13,310 --> 00:22:16,655
I think the public's natural
inclination is to assume
371
00:22:16,793 --> 00:22:18,310
there must be something very dark
372
00:22:18,448 --> 00:22:20,206
and traumatic in her past.
373
00:22:21,241 --> 00:22:24,724
And if I was instructed as an expert
in this case,
374
00:22:25,172 --> 00:22:27,758
I would want to delve
into Virginia's past
375
00:22:27,896 --> 00:22:30,103
to see if there were
any key incidents
376
00:22:30,241 --> 00:22:34,275
or causes of psychological distress
and damage.
377
00:22:35,137 --> 00:22:39,068
And one of the most important
and key factors is past trauma,
378
00:22:39,206 --> 00:22:41,137
including childhood experiences.
379
00:22:51,310 --> 00:22:54,689
I knew Ginny all the way through
infants and junior school,
380
00:22:54,827 --> 00:22:58,655
and we were quite close
friends in Year 2
381
00:22:58,793 --> 00:23:01,517
because we were placed
next to each other.
382
00:23:04,068 --> 00:23:07,000
I kind of was aware
at the time that...
383
00:23:08,034 --> 00:23:09,931
there was differences between us,
384
00:23:10,068 --> 00:23:12,517
and, you know,
when you talk to grown-ups, they go,
385
00:23:12,655 --> 00:23:14,448
"Oh, well, she's just a bit odd,
isn't she?"
386
00:23:14,586 --> 00:23:15,620
Yeah.
387
00:23:15,758 --> 00:23:16,758
She was weird at school,
388
00:23:17,172 --> 00:23:19,931
but not like murder your parents
and hide their bodies weird.
389
00:23:31,206 --> 00:23:34,551
When I first read that it was
definitely her,
390
00:23:34,689 --> 00:23:37,172
it was definitely her house,
it was definitely a double murder,
391
00:23:37,310 --> 00:23:39,482
and we didn't know the
timescale of it,
392
00:23:39,931 --> 00:23:41,413
I immediately thought,
393
00:23:41,551 --> 00:23:42,965
"Oh, my God."
394
00:23:43,379 --> 00:23:45,655
I didn't even know
she still lived there.
395
00:23:45,793 --> 00:23:47,931
I was so weirded out by it
396
00:23:48,448 --> 00:23:50,689
because this is a kid
I went to school with
397
00:23:50,827 --> 00:23:52,448
who I sat next to.
398
00:23:57,344 --> 00:23:58,517
She was odd.
399
00:24:00,068 --> 00:24:02,793
I don't remember a lot of personality
from her.
400
00:24:03,965 --> 00:24:08,310
I did get the overall feeling
through most of school
401
00:24:08,931 --> 00:24:11,620
that there was bullying.
402
00:24:12,689 --> 00:24:15,310
You know, when you just remember
picking up on people
403
00:24:15,448 --> 00:24:17,251
- just not saying nice things.
- Teenagers are mean, though,
404
00:24:17,275 --> 00:24:18,275
- ...aren't they?
- Yeah.
405
00:24:18,344 --> 00:24:19,631
Even though she hung
around in our group,
406
00:24:19,655 --> 00:24:22,448
there were people in our group
that would then,
407
00:24:22,724 --> 00:24:26,310
like tor... like not torment her,
but like take the mick out of her.
408
00:24:26,448 --> 00:24:29,000
I think she wanted to be friends
with people...
409
00:24:29,137 --> 00:24:31,448
- Yeah.
- ...but she didn't always know how.
410
00:24:31,965 --> 00:24:33,700
Like you couldn't really work out
who she was,
411
00:24:33,724 --> 00:24:35,034
if that makes sense.
412
00:24:35,310 --> 00:24:39,344
There was a time where she bought me
in a gift,
413
00:24:39,482 --> 00:24:42,103
and it was like obviously things
she'd like nicked
414
00:24:42,241 --> 00:24:43,586
from around the house.
415
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,206
And I remember kind of being like,
"Oh, thank you."
416
00:24:47,344 --> 00:24:48,482
And like I was a kid,
417
00:24:48,620 --> 00:24:50,620
I didn't really know
what was going on.
418
00:24:50,758 --> 00:24:55,655
And I do remember that she was
a very gifting person.
419
00:24:55,793 --> 00:24:59,275
And for that one year,
we were relatively close friends,
420
00:24:59,413 --> 00:25:02,793
but we never got to have
any play dates.
421
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,000
It was always kind of
her parents wouldn't allow it.
422
00:25:06,137 --> 00:25:08,137
Yeah, I remember when
we were at school,
423
00:25:08,275 --> 00:25:09,596
she didn't really talk
about her parents.
424
00:25:09,620 --> 00:25:13,517
I knew she was sort of
the youngest of the siblings
425
00:25:13,655 --> 00:25:16,758
and her parents had had her
when they were quite a bit older.
426
00:25:16,896 --> 00:25:18,655
I think even from quite a young age,
427
00:25:18,793 --> 00:25:21,137
she was very closed down
about family.
428
00:25:21,275 --> 00:25:23,655
I was quite aware,
429
00:25:23,793 --> 00:25:25,517
even at a young age,
the way she spoke,
430
00:25:25,655 --> 00:25:27,310
especially about her mum,
431
00:25:27,448 --> 00:25:30,000
that it wasn't a great relationship.
432
00:25:30,241 --> 00:25:32,103
Yeah, I just remember
her kind of saying,
433
00:25:32,241 --> 00:25:34,620
"I don't like my mum,
I don't like my mum at all."
434
00:25:34,758 --> 00:25:36,586
I mean, that's fair enough
as teenagers,
435
00:25:36,724 --> 00:25:39,034
but this was quite a lot younger.
436
00:25:39,655 --> 00:25:43,931
So, yeah, for me,
it reads as a very sad story
437
00:25:44,068 --> 00:25:46,379
of somebody who's really, really...
438
00:25:47,931 --> 00:25:49,482
fallen through the cracks.
439
00:25:52,931 --> 00:25:54,482
I knew, even as a child,
440
00:25:54,620 --> 00:25:57,413
that I should not have been a part
of that family.
441
00:25:57,862 --> 00:26:01,206
My parents were too strict and cold.
442
00:26:01,344 --> 00:26:03,172
They would sometimes become violent,
443
00:26:03,310 --> 00:26:06,000
and I was smacked and hit
for very small things.
444
00:26:07,275 --> 00:26:09,551
At five years old,
I had not been potty-trained
445
00:26:09,689 --> 00:26:11,827
and was still wetting
the bed at night.
446
00:26:12,517 --> 00:26:14,379
I would be smacked in the bath
for wetting
447
00:26:14,517 --> 00:26:16,206
if my mum was too stressed out.
448
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,241
I wondered if my parents loved me,
449
00:26:19,896 --> 00:26:22,103
or I was a burden.
450
00:26:22,241 --> 00:26:23,965
About the time I started school,
451
00:26:24,103 --> 00:26:26,413
I still needed help going
to the toilet.
452
00:26:26,965 --> 00:26:30,413
Children were noticing that I looked
untidy and strange.
453
00:26:31,206 --> 00:26:34,137
I was dirty some days
and others I had washing-up liquid
454
00:26:34,275 --> 00:26:36,413
slicked back in my hair
in a ponytail.
455
00:26:37,241 --> 00:26:39,586
I looked so unkempt or dirty
456
00:26:39,827 --> 00:26:43,620
that kids started saying,
Ginny Germs, no returns.
457
00:26:44,310 --> 00:26:47,103
At home, my drinks were limited to
three cups a day
458
00:26:47,310 --> 00:26:49,275
to try to prevent me wetting the bed.
459
00:26:49,586 --> 00:26:53,310
But when I was 10,
I was still not dry at night.
460
00:26:53,793 --> 00:26:56,482
My dad took me to the chemist
to get Huggies Pull-Ups
461
00:26:56,620 --> 00:26:59,103
and said very loudly to embarrass me,
462
00:26:59,379 --> 00:27:01,827
"You can carry them
as they are yours."
463
00:27:02,689 --> 00:27:05,758
According to what Virginia wrote
in her letters,
464
00:27:05,896 --> 00:27:09,103
she struggled at school
and she also struggled at home.
465
00:27:09,241 --> 00:27:11,379
So, it feels like to me,
it's almost like
466
00:27:11,517 --> 00:27:15,000
she doesn't have
any kind of safe space.
467
00:27:15,206 --> 00:27:17,896
And so, this is almost like
a perfect storm.
468
00:27:18,724 --> 00:27:20,689
The thing that really
stands out to me
469
00:27:20,827 --> 00:27:23,275
is just the degree
of childhood neglect
470
00:27:23,413 --> 00:27:26,206
that she says that she went through.
471
00:27:26,344 --> 00:27:27,862
Virginia highlights an incident
472
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,206
where her father intentionally
shamed her in a pharmacy
473
00:27:32,344 --> 00:27:35,000
whilst they were buying
pull-up nappies for her.
474
00:27:36,517 --> 00:27:38,931
Growing up in this environment
of not being loved,
475
00:27:39,068 --> 00:27:42,517
of being regularly criticised,
and potentially being physically
476
00:27:42,655 --> 00:27:43,965
and emotionally abused,
477
00:27:44,103 --> 00:27:46,275
I think could have left Virginia
478
00:27:46,413 --> 00:27:48,793
with this feeling of resentment
towards her parents
479
00:27:48,931 --> 00:27:52,103
that might have bubbled up
and grown over time.
480
00:27:54,137 --> 00:27:57,310
I was told off or smacked
by both my parents for anything,
481
00:27:57,448 --> 00:28:02,000
and I felt like I had no approval
or praise at home.
482
00:28:03,344 --> 00:28:07,310
The one thing that did matter to
my parents was academic achievement.
483
00:28:07,931 --> 00:28:11,344
But I experienced some of the worst
bullying at secondary school,
484
00:28:11,482 --> 00:28:15,068
and my grades fell short
as I found that I struggled.
485
00:28:15,620 --> 00:28:17,517
My father would make speeches to me
486
00:28:17,655 --> 00:28:20,724
where he said I would end up
in a cardboard box on the streets
487
00:28:20,862 --> 00:28:22,724
and amount to nothing.
488
00:28:23,517 --> 00:28:27,586
So, I decided to scan my school
report to cover up my grades,
489
00:28:27,724 --> 00:28:29,103
and sure enough,
490
00:28:29,241 --> 00:28:32,827
they were actually pleased with me
for a change.
491
00:28:32,965 --> 00:28:34,655
But at the end of Year 11,
492
00:28:34,793 --> 00:28:38,068
when it was time for my school report
to be given to my parents,
493
00:28:38,206 --> 00:28:41,310
it was posted and there was nothing
that I could do.
494
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,379
My mum really laid into me,
as did my dad,
495
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,931
telling me I was useless and stupid,
496
00:28:49,068 --> 00:28:52,482
a wretched human being
that was not their daughter.
497
00:28:54,103 --> 00:28:56,000
If what she says is correct,
498
00:28:56,137 --> 00:28:58,758
the love from her parents
is very conditional.
499
00:28:58,896 --> 00:29:00,827
They would only show her love
500
00:29:00,965 --> 00:29:03,965
if she was able to
achieve something in return.
501
00:29:05,241 --> 00:29:06,862
In my professional opinion,
502
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,448
this feeling of not being loved,
503
00:29:09,793 --> 00:29:11,172
feeling like a burden,
504
00:29:11,310 --> 00:29:13,241
would constitute abuse,
505
00:29:13,379 --> 00:29:15,241
specifically emotional abuse.
506
00:29:15,758 --> 00:29:17,137
At the same time,
507
00:29:17,275 --> 00:29:20,068
they would use physical punishment
and discipline.
508
00:29:20,758 --> 00:29:23,724
Your parents are the people that
support you when you're younger
509
00:29:23,862 --> 00:29:27,655
and they also help you develop
your own moral compass.
510
00:29:27,793 --> 00:29:31,206
So, if you've experienced violence
from a parental figure,
511
00:29:31,344 --> 00:29:34,862
that would increase the risk of you
becoming violent later on in life.
512
00:29:52,965 --> 00:29:56,000
She was a nice girl, Ginny.
513
00:29:56,724 --> 00:29:58,310
Quite quiet.
514
00:29:58,620 --> 00:30:00,310
A little bit different, I'd say.
515
00:30:01,965 --> 00:30:04,034
No one really knew too much
about her, to be honest.
516
00:30:04,172 --> 00:30:06,448
She did distance herself quite a lot.
517
00:30:07,413 --> 00:30:11,241
And some of the stories that
she used to say didn't quite add up.
518
00:30:12,827 --> 00:30:15,620
So, maybe there was another
side to Ginny
519
00:30:16,344 --> 00:30:17,827
that we just didn't know.
520
00:30:19,724 --> 00:30:22,241
Maybe the person
that she was trying to portray
521
00:30:23,137 --> 00:30:25,758
was different to reality.
522
00:30:28,379 --> 00:30:30,655
I'm Will, I run The Ship,
523
00:30:30,793 --> 00:30:34,103
and Ginny was one of my
members of staff here.
524
00:30:35,413 --> 00:30:39,379
She used to do the occasional
Saturday night on the bar,
525
00:30:39,896 --> 00:30:43,241
and she worked for us for about
two or three years, I'd say.
526
00:30:44,275 --> 00:30:47,655
She always made quite a bit of effort
when she worked here.
527
00:30:47,896 --> 00:30:51,310
She'd always dress herself up
quite nicely, lots of make-up.
528
00:30:51,448 --> 00:30:57,103
She'd wear these dresses to make
herself quite revealing as well.
529
00:30:57,241 --> 00:30:59,448
You know, she used to
like the attention.
530
00:30:59,586 --> 00:31:01,827
I think she enjoyed working here,
to be honest.
531
00:31:02,827 --> 00:31:04,620
But, yeah,
the more I got to know her,
532
00:31:05,137 --> 00:31:08,000
the more I realised
she was a little bit different.
533
00:31:09,068 --> 00:31:12,448
She used to do strange things,
like stand right behind you,
534
00:31:12,586 --> 00:31:14,931
and you wouldn't know she was there
until you turned around
535
00:31:15,068 --> 00:31:17,206
and you're like,
"Whoa, where did you come from?"
536
00:31:17,344 --> 00:31:19,103
Like, "I didn't even know
you were there."
537
00:31:19,241 --> 00:31:21,827
There'd just be awkward silences
with her, you know?
538
00:31:21,965 --> 00:31:24,310
Like the conversation wouldn't flow
very well.
539
00:31:24,448 --> 00:31:28,310
She used to make just odd comments
as well, here and there.
540
00:31:28,724 --> 00:31:30,251
When you used to ask her
to do normal jobs
541
00:31:30,275 --> 00:31:33,034
that someone could probably do,
you know, quite easily,
542
00:31:33,172 --> 00:31:35,655
use their common sense,
she would just, I don't know,
543
00:31:35,793 --> 00:31:37,413
seem to struggle with
that a little bit.
544
00:31:38,586 --> 00:31:40,226
The customers used to
find her funny here,
545
00:31:40,344 --> 00:31:42,424
but I don't know if they were
always laughing with her.
546
00:31:42,448 --> 00:31:44,517
They may have been laughing at her.
547
00:31:44,827 --> 00:31:46,424
Some of the other staff
used to talk about her
548
00:31:46,448 --> 00:31:48,172
a little bit behind her back.
549
00:31:53,482 --> 00:31:55,724
If I was working with Ginny on shift,
550
00:31:55,862 --> 00:31:58,103
she would ask for a lift home.
551
00:32:00,206 --> 00:32:02,103
Used to pull up outside her house.
552
00:32:02,241 --> 00:32:04,286
I think she invited me round
for a cup of tea once as well,
553
00:32:04,310 --> 00:32:05,862
but I declined.
554
00:32:07,379 --> 00:32:09,655
And her bag wasn't really that big,
555
00:32:09,793 --> 00:32:12,344
but it seemed like she was looking
in her bag for quite a while,
556
00:32:12,482 --> 00:32:15,241
a lot longer than it should have
taken her to find the keys.
557
00:32:15,379 --> 00:32:18,034
So, that's when I thought like,
this is a bit strange.
558
00:32:18,931 --> 00:32:22,758
It was like she was delaying
going back home.
559
00:32:23,896 --> 00:32:26,758
One time, her dad answered the door.
560
00:32:27,827 --> 00:32:30,241
He was wearing underwear
and a wife beater.
561
00:32:30,517 --> 00:32:31,896
I couldn't see his face.
562
00:32:32,862 --> 00:32:34,758
Something was going on
behind closed doors
563
00:32:34,896 --> 00:32:36,379
that we just didn't know about.
564
00:32:38,241 --> 00:32:39,827
That's what I just thought.
565
00:32:47,103 --> 00:32:48,383
I knew that John was her father,
566
00:32:48,482 --> 00:32:50,482
but he never really spoke to me
about his family.
567
00:32:54,689 --> 00:32:57,068
Probably knew him for around about
12 years.
568
00:32:57,310 --> 00:33:00,275
You'd see him in here
two to three times a week.
569
00:33:02,275 --> 00:33:05,344
John could be quite volatile,
quite eccentric.
570
00:33:06,827 --> 00:33:08,413
And whenever he played snooker,
571
00:33:08,551 --> 00:33:10,379
he'd expect absolute pin drop silence
572
00:33:10,517 --> 00:33:14,965
despite not being a particularly
quiet person himself when he spoke.
573
00:33:18,137 --> 00:33:21,310
John would have a drink no matter
what time of the day it was.
574
00:33:22,827 --> 00:33:25,137
And he was very keen on snooker.
575
00:33:25,448 --> 00:33:27,458
But if it wasn't going well
and it was getting to him,
576
00:33:27,482 --> 00:33:31,551
then he would want a pint of Foster's
or a glass of red wine
577
00:33:31,689 --> 00:33:33,068
or a double brandy.
578
00:33:33,206 --> 00:33:35,689
Hopefully not all at the same time,
but maybe sometimes.
579
00:33:37,413 --> 00:33:40,034
And there was a little story
where he might have had
580
00:33:40,172 --> 00:33:42,586
one too many drinks at lunch one day
and then he'd like
581
00:33:42,724 --> 00:33:47,000
fallen over outside the university
in front of maybe 20-odd people,
582
00:33:47,620 --> 00:33:49,689
and then decided to stop drinking.
583
00:33:49,965 --> 00:33:53,000
After about a week and a half,
he looked noticeably better,
584
00:33:53,137 --> 00:33:56,655
better for the fact that he hadn't
been drinking for those days.
585
00:33:57,448 --> 00:33:59,310
But, of course, that didn't last.
586
00:34:18,275 --> 00:34:20,379
Just before the lockdown in 2020,
587
00:34:21,103 --> 00:34:24,206
I'd realised that we hadn't seen John
since the previous year.
588
00:34:24,344 --> 00:34:25,734
So, at that time,
I was kind of thinking,
589
00:34:25,758 --> 00:34:27,620
I wonder what's happened to John?
590
00:34:28,275 --> 00:34:30,689
But then, of course,
the pandemic exploded.
591
00:34:30,931 --> 00:34:33,931
So, we didn't dwell on it
for too long.
592
00:34:39,034 --> 00:34:42,068
My dad's drinking began
long before I was born.
593
00:34:43,137 --> 00:34:44,275
When Dad got drunk,
594
00:34:44,724 --> 00:34:48,482
fights between my mum and dad
would get far too over the top.
595
00:34:49,620 --> 00:34:52,655
I had a role of being a buffer
between my dad's drinking
596
00:34:52,793 --> 00:34:54,793
and mother's mental health,
597
00:34:55,103 --> 00:34:57,620
or taking abuse
from one or both of them.
598
00:34:58,724 --> 00:35:00,551
My mum had severe OCD for years
599
00:35:00,689 --> 00:35:03,482
and would wipe door handles,
sofa surfaces, chairs
600
00:35:03,620 --> 00:35:05,655
in neat disinfectant.
601
00:35:06,724 --> 00:35:10,793
She taught us to see our dad
as unclean or covered in germs.
602
00:35:11,344 --> 00:35:14,000
Sometimes my mother would shout out
insults in the night
603
00:35:14,137 --> 00:35:16,862
or say she wished I was dead.
604
00:35:17,758 --> 00:35:19,896
It was hard to calm her down
or reason with her,
605
00:35:20,034 --> 00:35:22,103
and my dad resorted to drinking more.
606
00:35:24,103 --> 00:35:28,448
I will not go into all details
for everything that happened,
607
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:30,310
that my father did.
608
00:35:36,896 --> 00:35:40,068
There's something not right
with that whole family dynamic.
609
00:35:41,448 --> 00:35:42,448
For a while afterwards,
610
00:35:42,758 --> 00:35:45,551
I was playing through
every single conversation we had
611
00:35:45,689 --> 00:35:47,931
and everything that she said to me.
612
00:35:49,379 --> 00:35:51,000
Talking about her parents,
613
00:35:51,137 --> 00:35:52,655
she gave me the impression
614
00:35:52,793 --> 00:35:56,137
she had quite
a difficult relationship with them.
615
00:35:56,551 --> 00:35:58,827
And I always felt that there
was something there,
616
00:35:58,965 --> 00:36:01,206
there was a barrier.
617
00:36:03,758 --> 00:36:06,689
She never said about
childhood experiences.
618
00:36:06,931 --> 00:36:09,172
Maybe she thought she would
reveal something
619
00:36:09,310 --> 00:36:11,655
or say something if she did.
620
00:36:12,413 --> 00:36:15,068
I thought that there'd been
some kind of abuse,
621
00:36:15,275 --> 00:36:17,241
there'd been something terrible
that happened
622
00:36:17,379 --> 00:36:19,413
that got her to that point.
623
00:36:20,137 --> 00:36:21,724
For her to have done that,
624
00:36:22,827 --> 00:36:24,482
something bad had happened,
625
00:36:24,620 --> 00:36:26,758
something had driven her to it.
626
00:36:31,206 --> 00:36:33,172
Ginny never shared anything
about her home life,
627
00:36:33,310 --> 00:36:35,137
which is a sad thing really,
628
00:36:35,275 --> 00:36:37,344
because everybody talks about
their home life.
629
00:36:38,034 --> 00:36:40,862
There's lots of people saying,
oh, you know,
630
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:42,551
that dad was quite abusive and that,
631
00:36:42,689 --> 00:36:45,862
whether that's true or not,
I couldn't say that.
632
00:36:46,137 --> 00:36:47,517
But that was the talk.
633
00:36:49,172 --> 00:36:52,379
But I don't know anything about
Ginny's father, not really.
634
00:36:52,862 --> 00:36:53,965
Nobody did.
635
00:36:54,206 --> 00:36:56,517
So, you didn't know how
much to believe,
636
00:36:57,206 --> 00:36:59,586
you know, what happens behind
closed doors,
637
00:37:00,172 --> 00:37:02,241
you're never privy to
that information.
638
00:37:02,379 --> 00:37:04,413
So, there's lots of stuff unanswered.
639
00:37:07,655 --> 00:37:09,482
One of the things around
every murder is,
640
00:37:09,620 --> 00:37:11,172
why has this taken place?
641
00:37:11,310 --> 00:37:14,206
Now, what we don't know is
what happens behind closed doors,
642
00:37:14,655 --> 00:37:19,517
but there is some suggestion that
the entire family were unhappy.
643
00:37:20,482 --> 00:37:23,931
Lois is described as
being a fun hoover.
644
00:37:24,586 --> 00:37:28,379
Virginia's father was particularly
strict in her upbringing.
645
00:37:29,275 --> 00:37:35,000
Was this killing retribution for acts
that he'd undertaken previously?
646
00:37:36,965 --> 00:37:39,355
In a village, you know,
when something like this happens,
647
00:37:39,379 --> 00:37:41,137
yeah, people start chatting.
648
00:37:41,413 --> 00:37:44,344
And my thoughts really
were with the parents.
649
00:37:44,482 --> 00:37:48,379
I thought what a dreadful thing
to have happened to them.
650
00:37:49,034 --> 00:37:52,862
When it first seemed that
she'd murdered her father,
651
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,068
I wondered if it had been
a sudden argument,
652
00:37:56,310 --> 00:38:00,517
because I could imagine John
could have a quick fuse.
653
00:38:01,655 --> 00:38:03,113
And John used to go and have a drink.
654
00:38:03,137 --> 00:38:05,206
That came to my mind immediately.
655
00:38:09,172 --> 00:38:10,665
When there is
a lack of information
656
00:38:10,689 --> 00:38:11,896
that's publicly available,
657
00:38:12,172 --> 00:38:17,000
there is the opportunity
for speculation to fill that chasm.
658
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:22,034
There was an element of that
in this case in Great Baddow.
659
00:38:22,517 --> 00:38:25,172
And because the family
were so reserved
660
00:38:25,310 --> 00:38:28,172
and very private in their lifestyles,
661
00:38:28,310 --> 00:38:32,724
that almost added to that element
of why this might have happened.
662
00:38:34,206 --> 00:38:35,586
There were some speculations
663
00:38:35,724 --> 00:38:39,724
that there had been
an abusive element of the family.
664
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,620
Now, that was something that
we weren't able to verify.
665
00:38:43,758 --> 00:38:46,379
So, it was pure speculation.
666
00:38:50,655 --> 00:38:52,206
A number of months before the end,
667
00:38:52,344 --> 00:38:55,068
my mother was getting more
and more emotionally cruel,
668
00:38:55,206 --> 00:38:57,068
telling me I was worthless.
669
00:38:57,758 --> 00:39:00,793
And there was growing toxicity
from my dad's drinking.
670
00:39:02,137 --> 00:39:03,862
Nighttime was my only respite,
671
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,137
and even then, I would cry
and feel hopeless.
672
00:39:08,034 --> 00:39:10,655
I felt emotionally desperate
and trapped.
673
00:39:12,206 --> 00:39:14,758
I got to a point where there
was nothing that I wanted more
674
00:39:14,896 --> 00:39:19,413
than a normal, quiet life,
at almost any cost.
675
00:39:54,620 --> 00:39:58,206
At this point, the story begins
to take a step forward,
676
00:39:58,344 --> 00:40:01,862
because we finally find
out how Lois died.
677
00:40:02,896 --> 00:40:05,256
The cause of John's death
at this point in the investigation
678
00:40:05,379 --> 00:40:07,241
remained unclear,
679
00:40:07,482 --> 00:40:09,172
but the post-mortem examination
680
00:40:09,310 --> 00:40:14,137
revealed that Lois had died
from stab wounds.
681
00:40:16,103 --> 00:40:18,689
The method that Virginia chose
to kill her mother,
682
00:40:18,827 --> 00:40:21,482
stabbing her repeatedly,
it's very frenzied,
683
00:40:21,620 --> 00:40:25,413
it's very brutal,
and it's also very intimate.
684
00:40:25,551 --> 00:40:29,275
For a woman to commit this level
of violence is extremely unusual,
685
00:40:29,413 --> 00:40:31,551
particularly when we've got
an individual, Virginia,
686
00:40:31,689 --> 00:40:34,965
who doesn't have a known history
of previous violence or aggression.
687
00:40:35,103 --> 00:40:36,793
The fact that Virginia could do this
688
00:40:36,931 --> 00:40:38,931
says a lot about
her psychological makeup.
689
00:40:54,689 --> 00:40:57,965
In this case, there are some elements
that are just so bizarre.
690
00:40:58,103 --> 00:40:59,620
You've got a female perpetrator.
691
00:41:00,137 --> 00:41:02,689
She's chosen her own parents
as the target,
692
00:41:02,827 --> 00:41:07,689
and she's been in close proximity
to the bodies for almost five years.
693
00:41:08,620 --> 00:41:10,793
So, what would have been
definitely considered
694
00:41:10,931 --> 00:41:13,827
is a potential psychiatric defence.
695
00:41:14,310 --> 00:41:17,827
In extreme cases where somebody
is driven by mental illness,
696
00:41:17,965 --> 00:41:20,275
they might be found not guilty
by reason of insanity,
697
00:41:20,413 --> 00:41:22,172
and that is full absolution.
698
00:41:22,379 --> 00:41:24,655
So, if the court agrees
with that plea,
699
00:41:24,793 --> 00:41:27,241
it means in the eyes of the law,
you are innocent.
700
00:41:39,931 --> 00:41:43,724
There's always the question
in circumstances like this
701
00:41:43,862 --> 00:41:47,482
as to how sound of mind
702
00:41:47,620 --> 00:41:51,620
the possible perpetrator is
during these crimes.
703
00:41:51,758 --> 00:41:54,620
But it's quite unsavoury
to imagine that someone
704
00:41:54,758 --> 00:41:56,413
could go about their daily life
705
00:41:56,551 --> 00:41:59,482
coexisting with two corpses
inside the house.
706
00:42:00,517 --> 00:42:03,862
You begin to wonder how could
her daily life have continued
707
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:09,620
and how she kept up the pretence
that her parents were still alive.
708
00:42:11,241 --> 00:42:13,724
I spent the first six months
mostly indoors.
709
00:42:14,758 --> 00:42:18,379
I did not sleep upstairs
but in the lounge, on the couch.
710
00:42:19,103 --> 00:42:23,103
Having my parents in the house but
without any mental abuse or drinking,
711
00:42:23,310 --> 00:42:26,655
I admit, in a strange way,
was a silent comfort.
712
00:42:27,724 --> 00:42:29,172
I did go out now and again,
713
00:42:29,310 --> 00:42:32,655
and I did obviously encounter locals
and some neighbours.
714
00:42:32,862 --> 00:42:34,896
I told them that my parents
were away at first,
715
00:42:35,034 --> 00:42:37,793
and then I said that they had
moved to the coast.
716
00:42:38,103 --> 00:42:40,137
I was just living normally
and quietly,
717
00:42:40,551 --> 00:42:42,758
which is rather dull to some perhaps,
718
00:42:42,896 --> 00:42:46,758
but it's all I wanted at the time
I committed the crime.
719
00:42:56,482 --> 00:42:58,275
She just seemed to appear one day.
720
00:42:58,413 --> 00:42:59,517
Yeah.
721
00:42:59,655 --> 00:43:02,275
Literally she was looking outside,
I believe,
722
00:43:02,413 --> 00:43:03,896
and then she just came in.
723
00:43:04,793 --> 00:43:06,458
I hadn't seen her around
or anything like that.
724
00:43:06,482 --> 00:43:08,586
It's just kind of like she appeared,
725
00:43:09,034 --> 00:43:11,586
and then hung around
for quite a few years.
726
00:43:14,620 --> 00:43:16,517
So, I'm Rachel.
727
00:43:16,655 --> 00:43:18,241
- And this is Debbie.
- I'm Debbie.
728
00:43:20,827 --> 00:43:21,827
See you later.
729
00:43:22,034 --> 00:43:24,517
I own House of Flowers
in Great Baddow.
730
00:43:25,655 --> 00:43:28,689
And Rachel is my trusty...
731
00:43:29,758 --> 00:43:31,448
Boss.
732
00:43:33,103 --> 00:43:35,034
She started off just
browsing at things,
733
00:43:35,172 --> 00:43:37,068
and then would spend
more and more time,
734
00:43:38,586 --> 00:43:40,758
and just bought all different stuff.
735
00:43:41,586 --> 00:43:43,172
I didn't really engage with her
736
00:43:43,310 --> 00:43:46,103
because I just felt
she was just too much.
737
00:43:46,758 --> 00:43:49,551
Yeah, she was a bit... well,
she was strange.
738
00:43:50,172 --> 00:43:51,379
Very strange.
739
00:43:51,689 --> 00:43:54,344
She used to wander around
the shop going, la-la-la.
740
00:43:54,482 --> 00:43:55,758
Yeah, she was strange.
741
00:43:59,862 --> 00:44:01,551
She was a bit of a fantasist
742
00:44:01,689 --> 00:44:03,827
with some of the things
that she used to say to us,
743
00:44:03,965 --> 00:44:06,241
but you'd just smile and accept it.
744
00:44:06,724 --> 00:44:07,965
And you'd just think,
745
00:44:08,275 --> 00:44:11,000
"Hmm, it's Ginny's behaviour,
it's just the way she was."
746
00:44:11,137 --> 00:44:12,241
You know?
747
00:44:13,655 --> 00:44:15,413
But over this period of time,
748
00:44:15,862 --> 00:44:18,620
we got to know that she could be
quite a generous person.
749
00:44:20,965 --> 00:44:22,241
It'd be the odd coffee.
750
00:44:22,862 --> 00:44:24,275
Then it'd become more regular,
751
00:44:25,310 --> 00:44:27,827
buying doughnuts for the staff,
cakes for the staff.
752
00:44:27,965 --> 00:44:30,448
It was all mainly food stuff,
food items.
753
00:44:31,103 --> 00:44:33,223
It got to a stage where I was sort of
turning her down
754
00:44:33,275 --> 00:44:34,965
because I wanted to lose
a bit of weight
755
00:44:35,103 --> 00:44:37,263
and the stuff that she was buying me
was making me fat.
756
00:44:38,344 --> 00:44:40,344
Well, she spent loads of money.
757
00:44:41,034 --> 00:44:43,379
- At first, it was mainly all cash.
- All cash.
758
00:44:43,931 --> 00:44:46,103
It would always be over
£100, wasn't it?
759
00:44:47,206 --> 00:44:49,344
Quite often, £140, £150.
760
00:44:50,689 --> 00:44:52,103
Just on random goods in the shop.
761
00:44:52,241 --> 00:44:53,758
On giftware more than anything.
762
00:44:54,206 --> 00:44:58,068
And then she came in
with a bag of food for us.
763
00:44:58,827 --> 00:45:01,137
I said, "Ginny, let me pay for this."
764
00:45:01,655 --> 00:45:03,482
And she wouldn't take the money.
765
00:45:03,689 --> 00:45:05,206
She brought the second lot in.
766
00:45:05,931 --> 00:45:08,413
I said, "Ginny, you've got to stop
doing this."
767
00:45:08,551 --> 00:45:10,689
That's when she started buying
the bouquets for people
768
00:45:10,827 --> 00:45:12,724
- after that as well, wasn't it?
- Yeah.
769
00:45:12,862 --> 00:45:16,379
For people like the elderly lady
over the road. And her neighbour.
770
00:45:16,517 --> 00:45:18,310
And a couple that lived
a few doors down.
771
00:45:18,448 --> 00:45:19,448
Yeah.
772
00:45:19,689 --> 00:45:21,620
I just thought, "Why are you
buying these things?
773
00:45:21,758 --> 00:45:23,172
I don't understand why."
774
00:45:23,413 --> 00:45:24,734
I thought she was just
trying too hard.
775
00:45:24,758 --> 00:45:27,931
Maybe she's just trying
to make friends, maybe.
776
00:45:28,965 --> 00:45:32,137
Almost like childlike in a way.
777
00:45:35,689 --> 00:45:37,689
People would say
that she was odd,
778
00:45:37,827 --> 00:45:39,793
but she wasn't odd to me.
779
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,310
You know, she was just Ginny.
780
00:45:44,793 --> 00:45:46,448
Ginny was a little quirky.
781
00:45:46,896 --> 00:45:48,758
You know, she was just...
782
00:45:49,413 --> 00:45:50,655
always about.
783
00:45:50,862 --> 00:45:55,620
She was constantly outside her house
and around.
784
00:45:55,758 --> 00:45:57,862
And you would see her on her drive
785
00:45:58,000 --> 00:45:59,931
and doing gardening out front
786
00:46:00,068 --> 00:46:01,586
or sweeping up leaves.
787
00:46:01,724 --> 00:46:04,344
And she'd stop me,
and she'd say something,
788
00:46:04,482 --> 00:46:05,758
"Oh, your hair's nice,"
789
00:46:05,896 --> 00:46:07,586
"Oh, that colour looks good on you."
790
00:46:07,724 --> 00:46:10,965
And she just seemed, you know,
a genuine person.
791
00:46:11,517 --> 00:46:13,896
I don't think she had
many people that
792
00:46:14,620 --> 00:46:17,137
did want to listen to her,
793
00:46:18,137 --> 00:46:19,551
or were interested,
794
00:46:20,586 --> 00:46:21,862
or even cared.
795
00:46:22,586 --> 00:46:27,413
I've heard people say
that she wanted to buy friendship,
796
00:46:28,172 --> 00:46:30,862
but I don't think she did that.
797
00:46:31,103 --> 00:46:35,448
I think she wanted to feel like
she was a nice person,
798
00:46:36,034 --> 00:46:38,310
and she was doing nice
things for people.
799
00:46:41,034 --> 00:46:42,734
All the time would be coming over
with something,
800
00:46:42,758 --> 00:46:45,000
you know, something to eat,
something to drink.
801
00:46:45,137 --> 00:46:47,206
Did we want anything? You know?
802
00:46:47,448 --> 00:46:48,665
And that's when we started
to question,
803
00:46:48,689 --> 00:46:50,009
where did she get the money from?
804
00:46:50,275 --> 00:46:52,517
Because as far as we was aware,
805
00:46:52,758 --> 00:46:53,896
Ginny never worked.
806
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:59,206
We now know that Virginia
was taking full advantage
807
00:46:59,448 --> 00:47:02,896
of her parents' financial situation.
808
00:47:03,379 --> 00:47:04,827
After their deaths,
809
00:47:04,965 --> 00:47:08,172
she regularly took money
from their bank account.
810
00:47:08,310 --> 00:47:12,241
She knew the PIN numbers,
had access to those accounts.
811
00:47:12,379 --> 00:47:16,862
She continued to claim
her parents' state pension
812
00:47:17,103 --> 00:47:18,827
and work-related pensions.
813
00:47:18,965 --> 00:47:21,724
She was benefiting hugely from money
814
00:47:21,862 --> 00:47:23,896
which was intended to go to them.
815
00:47:24,206 --> 00:47:26,620
And on the day they were killed,
816
00:47:26,965 --> 00:47:29,931
Virginia ordered a new card
in her mum's name
817
00:47:30,344 --> 00:47:31,827
and went on a spending spree.
818
00:47:33,482 --> 00:47:38,275
This was a woman who had
no qualms about spending
819
00:47:38,413 --> 00:47:40,965
and stealing time and time again.
820
00:47:41,103 --> 00:47:44,689
You can't help but think, what was
she doing with all that money?
821
00:47:50,517 --> 00:47:53,034
Yes, I did use money
that I should not have done
822
00:47:53,172 --> 00:47:56,344
that was pension money
and on credit cards.
823
00:47:56,586 --> 00:47:58,655
But I did not buy any holidays,
vehicles,
824
00:47:58,793 --> 00:48:01,379
designer items or anything high-end.
825
00:48:01,827 --> 00:48:04,275
I spent money on everyday things
and bills
826
00:48:04,413 --> 00:48:05,862
to keep the house running.
827
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:09,655
It is true that I bought some locals
food, takeaways,
828
00:48:09,793 --> 00:48:13,241
and other things on regular occasions
to be kind.
829
00:48:13,862 --> 00:48:17,172
I was addicted to the smile
it would put on some of their faces
830
00:48:17,310 --> 00:48:20,034
and the friendly behaviour
that then followed.
831
00:48:23,758 --> 00:48:26,482
Ginny, to me, was a customer.
832
00:48:26,965 --> 00:48:28,965
- And...
- I wouldn't call her a friend.
833
00:48:29,206 --> 00:48:31,965
- No way.
- To me, she was a nuisance.
834
00:48:32,827 --> 00:48:36,655
She got banned from a couple of shops
because she was such a nuisance.
835
00:48:36,793 --> 00:48:38,803
I didn't have a clue what she
was talking about half the time.
836
00:48:38,827 --> 00:48:41,655
Most of the time I would just be,
yes, no, yes, no,
837
00:48:41,793 --> 00:48:44,068
because I was just trying
to cut it short.
838
00:48:44,931 --> 00:48:46,286
There was always something new,
839
00:48:46,310 --> 00:48:49,137
there was always a new story
for her to tell you about,
840
00:48:49,275 --> 00:48:51,206
some sort of drama.
841
00:48:51,344 --> 00:48:53,586
You know,
her Ring Doorbell getting hacked,
842
00:48:53,724 --> 00:48:55,000
the internet getting hacked,
843
00:48:55,137 --> 00:48:56,310
her phone's getting hacked,
844
00:48:56,448 --> 00:48:57,793
post going missing.
845
00:48:57,931 --> 00:49:00,413
She always had problems with
two neighbours across the road.
846
00:49:00,551 --> 00:49:02,586
And I actually spoke
to the people that
847
00:49:02,724 --> 00:49:05,448
she was making these things up about,
and they were like, "What?"
848
00:49:05,586 --> 00:49:07,655
That's where her eccentricity
comes from,
849
00:49:07,793 --> 00:49:09,473
because she was making up
all these things.
850
00:49:10,655 --> 00:49:13,172
I always felt she was a little
bit of a fantasist.
851
00:49:13,310 --> 00:49:14,965
I'd speak to her for a while
852
00:49:15,275 --> 00:49:18,517
and it would be a normal
conversation,
853
00:49:18,655 --> 00:49:22,275
but then she'd say something
which was completely off the planet.
854
00:49:22,413 --> 00:49:24,206
You'd think, "That can't be right."
855
00:49:24,482 --> 00:49:26,793
She'd sometimes say something like,
856
00:49:26,931 --> 00:49:29,448
"Oh, the neighbours are spying on me.
857
00:49:29,758 --> 00:49:31,678
You have to be careful with that one
over there,"
858
00:49:31,862 --> 00:49:34,344
or, "My mail's being stolen."
859
00:49:35,034 --> 00:49:36,896
I mean, a few weeks before
she was arrested,
860
00:49:37,034 --> 00:49:40,206
she was going around telling people
that she was pregnant.
861
00:49:42,793 --> 00:49:44,344
She said she was pregnant.
862
00:49:44,655 --> 00:49:46,206
So, you start to question then,
863
00:49:46,344 --> 00:49:47,793
"Oh, who's the dad?"
864
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,103
Because there's never been a mention
of a boyfriend
865
00:49:50,241 --> 00:49:52,896
in any of this time
that she's been here.
866
00:49:53,379 --> 00:49:57,517
So, "Oh, the dad's
an old boyfriend of mine.
867
00:49:57,655 --> 00:49:58,965
You know, you know how it is."
868
00:49:59,896 --> 00:50:02,103
When she came out that
she was pregnant,
869
00:50:02,758 --> 00:50:04,275
she didn't tell us who it was
870
00:50:04,827 --> 00:50:05,827
or...
871
00:50:06,482 --> 00:50:09,137
any information about him
as a person either.
872
00:50:09,689 --> 00:50:13,241
Anyone normal, you'd have
a two-way conversation,
873
00:50:13,379 --> 00:50:15,389
but you just didn't have a two-way
conversation with her.
874
00:50:15,413 --> 00:50:19,482
She would just tell you what
she wanted you to hear,
875
00:50:19,620 --> 00:50:20,827
and then that was it.
876
00:50:22,379 --> 00:50:25,896
And then I started to doubt
if there ever was the pregnancy.
877
00:50:26,551 --> 00:50:29,724
Some days she would really be
rubbing the belly
878
00:50:29,862 --> 00:50:31,022
and really showing the belly,
879
00:50:31,103 --> 00:50:32,379
then other days I was like,
880
00:50:32,517 --> 00:50:33,620
"Where's the bump gone?"
881
00:50:33,758 --> 00:50:36,482
It wasn't consistent
as it was getting bigger.
882
00:50:36,620 --> 00:50:38,068
- It was...
- But it went from...
883
00:50:38,206 --> 00:50:39,446
...bigger some days than other.
884
00:50:39,586 --> 00:50:40,838
It went from a nice, high, neat bump
to quite a big...
885
00:50:40,862 --> 00:50:42,931
- And then to quite a big bump.
- Yeah.
886
00:50:43,689 --> 00:50:47,275
How can your baby grow that much
in such a short time?
887
00:50:47,724 --> 00:50:49,862
I'd already questioned
a few things, hadn't I,
888
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:51,493
- with the paperwork and stuff?
- Because of the paperwork,
889
00:50:51,517 --> 00:50:53,482
she carried around everywhere
with her,
890
00:50:53,620 --> 00:50:55,034
it was photocopies of something.
891
00:50:55,172 --> 00:50:56,562
It was just photocopies
in her handbag,
892
00:50:56,586 --> 00:50:59,034
and it always poked out of her bag
as much...
893
00:50:59,551 --> 00:51:01,862
just enough for you
to see baby stuff,
894
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:04,586
but not enough for you to actually
physically see...
895
00:51:04,724 --> 00:51:06,724
- The whole...
- ...exactly what it was.
896
00:51:07,172 --> 00:51:09,206
I just don't think
she was pregnant at all.
897
00:51:09,344 --> 00:51:11,965
When someone comes in
and says they're pregnant
898
00:51:12,931 --> 00:51:15,517
and shows you a scan,
all very quickly,
899
00:51:15,931 --> 00:51:16,931
you have doubts.
900
00:51:17,758 --> 00:51:19,379
I don't know why she did it.
901
00:51:19,689 --> 00:51:22,344
I just think it was just like
everything else
902
00:51:22,482 --> 00:51:24,137
that went round in Pump Hill.
903
00:51:24,551 --> 00:51:26,448
This was just another
one of them things.
904
00:51:26,586 --> 00:51:30,068
Maybe it was the crackling
of the edges
905
00:51:30,206 --> 00:51:32,517
that she'd had this
façade for so long,
906
00:51:32,862 --> 00:51:35,000
and things were starting
to tumble down.
907
00:51:35,241 --> 00:51:36,872
So, she was starting
to come up with things
908
00:51:36,896 --> 00:51:39,448
so, people would feel sorry for her
a bit more.
909
00:51:39,586 --> 00:51:40,862
I don't know.
910
00:51:41,137 --> 00:51:43,862
But there was definitely
stuff going on.
911
00:51:47,689 --> 00:51:49,310
When you're friends with somebody,
912
00:51:49,448 --> 00:51:54,586
there's an element of trust
and truth and honesty,
913
00:51:55,448 --> 00:51:59,620
and I don't know how
much she was with me
914
00:51:59,758 --> 00:52:01,310
with all of those things.
915
00:52:02,793 --> 00:52:04,448
She said that she'd had a scan,
916
00:52:05,827 --> 00:52:07,241
and the baby was fine,
917
00:52:08,137 --> 00:52:10,103
and that's when she told
me it was a girl.
918
00:52:13,551 --> 00:52:15,758
She said that there was this
big family gathering
919
00:52:15,896 --> 00:52:18,000
and they were all going to be there,
920
00:52:18,137 --> 00:52:21,551
and she said that she was gonna go
and tell them all
921
00:52:21,689 --> 00:52:23,448
that she was pregnant.
922
00:52:23,689 --> 00:52:26,000
And when I saw her the next day,
923
00:52:26,137 --> 00:52:27,793
I said, "Oh, yeah,
how did it go down?
924
00:52:27,931 --> 00:52:30,044
Was everyone really happy for you?
Are they all excited?"
925
00:52:30,068 --> 00:52:33,137
You know, and she went, "No. No."
926
00:52:33,275 --> 00:52:36,448
She said, "My parents are
very old-fashioned,
927
00:52:36,586 --> 00:52:38,838
and they don't approve of the fact
that I haven't got a partner
928
00:52:38,862 --> 00:52:39,965
and I'm single."
929
00:52:42,448 --> 00:52:43,724
I don't know. I just...
930
00:52:44,241 --> 00:52:47,965
I just believed her
and took everything on face value.
931
00:52:50,103 --> 00:52:52,448
You know, I think she
must have known that
932
00:52:53,068 --> 00:52:55,310
she wouldn't have had
time with this baby
933
00:52:55,517 --> 00:52:58,275
because she was hiding
her huge secret,
934
00:52:58,931 --> 00:53:02,862
and she must have known there was
a time when it would all come out.
935
00:53:06,793 --> 00:53:09,310
Telling all these lies,
this is either something
936
00:53:09,448 --> 00:53:12,241
that's completely fabricated
or lying for sympathy.
937
00:53:12,379 --> 00:53:14,689
Somebody who's extremely sensitive
938
00:53:14,827 --> 00:53:16,448
and perhaps quite dramatic.
939
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:19,103
They are simply a pathological liar.
940
00:53:21,517 --> 00:53:25,068
We do know that Virginia
is obviously quite deceitful
941
00:53:25,413 --> 00:53:27,907
in terms of the fact that she managed
to hide the death of her parents,
942
00:53:27,931 --> 00:53:29,965
lie about their location for years.
943
00:53:32,620 --> 00:53:35,413
Virginia had engaged
in a very comprehensive
944
00:53:35,551 --> 00:53:39,103
and complex cover-up
of her parents' deaths.
945
00:53:39,655 --> 00:53:43,413
There was a huge amount
of deception perpetrated by Virginia.
946
00:53:43,655 --> 00:53:47,448
Ginny contacted the GP
nearly 200 times,
947
00:53:47,793 --> 00:53:51,068
making and then cancelling
appointments for her parents.
948
00:53:51,413 --> 00:53:55,448
She was, in effect,
juggling plates all the while,
949
00:53:55,586 --> 00:53:57,700
booking medical appointments
and then cancelling them,
950
00:53:57,724 --> 00:54:01,965
suggesting that they couldn't attend
for one reason or another,
951
00:54:02,103 --> 00:54:03,758
using their bank accounts
sufficiently
952
00:54:03,896 --> 00:54:07,482
to make it seem that they were
still using them.
953
00:54:07,689 --> 00:54:11,448
She had to convince people
that her parents were still alive,
954
00:54:11,586 --> 00:54:15,275
and she was doing that
through multiple text messages
955
00:54:15,413 --> 00:54:17,034
to the authorities.
956
00:54:17,241 --> 00:54:20,206
It was one lie after another.
957
00:54:23,482 --> 00:54:26,241
Looking at Virginia's lie,
958
00:54:26,655 --> 00:54:29,275
in terms of keeping her parents' body
959
00:54:29,413 --> 00:54:30,586
in the family home,
960
00:54:30,724 --> 00:54:34,172
yet telling so many different people
across years
961
00:54:34,310 --> 00:54:37,034
about her parents' apparent
whereabouts and their travelling,
962
00:54:37,172 --> 00:54:38,655
it shows a real commitment.
963
00:54:38,793 --> 00:54:41,379
The average person would
significantly struggle
964
00:54:41,620 --> 00:54:45,413
with lying about something
so intense, so emotional
965
00:54:45,551 --> 00:54:48,586
about covering up
the murder of your own parents,
966
00:54:48,724 --> 00:54:51,827
especially doing it consistently
for such a long period of time.
967
00:54:51,965 --> 00:54:56,448
I imagine it must have been
psychologically taxing for Virginia,
968
00:54:56,586 --> 00:55:01,344
and I do wonder whether this pressure
just built up in her mind over time.
969
00:55:03,310 --> 00:55:06,448
In the weeks leading up to her
arrest, she got quite paranoid.
970
00:55:06,586 --> 00:55:09,275
I don't think she was in a very
good place.
971
00:55:10,896 --> 00:55:13,275
Her conversations were
more and more about
972
00:55:13,724 --> 00:55:16,172
how awful her life was becoming
973
00:55:16,310 --> 00:55:18,482
with what she was having
to deal with.
974
00:55:19,068 --> 00:55:24,137
And the problems that she was having
living in her street.
975
00:55:24,344 --> 00:55:26,517
And it was a lot about her neighbours
976
00:55:26,965 --> 00:55:30,275
and a lot about the police.
977
00:55:30,413 --> 00:55:34,793
One particular day she came in,
obviously very, very distressed.
978
00:55:34,931 --> 00:55:37,137
I've never seen her like that before.
979
00:55:37,482 --> 00:55:39,586
But she had a big bandage
on her arm, didn't she?
980
00:55:39,724 --> 00:55:40,724
Yeah.
981
00:55:41,068 --> 00:55:42,251
And then she just kept blaming
her neighbours,
982
00:55:42,275 --> 00:55:44,379
said her neighbours had attacked her.
983
00:55:44,586 --> 00:55:45,803
We hadn't seen her
for about two weeks,
984
00:55:45,827 --> 00:55:48,586
which was a long time
not to see Ginny.
985
00:55:48,724 --> 00:55:50,389
And she walked in the front door
of the shop,
986
00:55:50,413 --> 00:55:53,000
and she had bruises and lacerations.
987
00:55:53,241 --> 00:55:55,103
So, I'm like, "What happened?"
988
00:55:55,758 --> 00:55:58,517
"Oh, I was in the bedroom,
and at three o'clock in the morning
989
00:55:58,655 --> 00:56:00,620
I heard a kerfuffle
out in the garden.
990
00:56:01,206 --> 00:56:03,586
So, I've gone downstairs
and gone outside.
991
00:56:04,172 --> 00:56:06,068
And someone was there,
and I confronted them.
992
00:56:06,206 --> 00:56:09,310
They jumped me, and then
they jumped off and ran away."
993
00:56:09,448 --> 00:56:11,620
She told me that they
were slashing her
994
00:56:11,758 --> 00:56:13,310
with some kind of blade,
995
00:56:14,137 --> 00:56:16,413
and they were punching
her in the face.
996
00:56:16,551 --> 00:56:19,793
She said that she was convinced
it was her neighbours.
997
00:56:19,931 --> 00:56:24,758
But there were people saying that
it was all self-inflicted.
998
00:56:25,172 --> 00:56:30,965
And I don't know, you'd really have
to go some to do that to yourself.
999
00:56:33,206 --> 00:56:34,551
Her face was really bad,
1000
00:56:35,413 --> 00:56:40,000
because we both were scrutinising her
to see if it was really good makeup.
1001
00:56:40,310 --> 00:56:41,872
- We didn't think it was.
- I don't think it was makeup.
1002
00:56:41,896 --> 00:56:45,413
It looked really good, if it was.
1003
00:56:46,551 --> 00:56:48,413
I was genuinely worried
about her.
1004
00:56:48,551 --> 00:56:50,379
As much as I thought she was crazy,
1005
00:56:50,586 --> 00:56:52,344
I wouldn't wish that on anybody.
1006
00:56:53,310 --> 00:56:56,482
But then she said the police
were against her.
1007
00:56:56,793 --> 00:56:58,620
They've been round,
they've asked questions,
1008
00:56:58,758 --> 00:57:01,241
but I don't trust them,
I can't trust them at all.
1009
00:57:01,758 --> 00:57:02,862
They're all in on it.
1010
00:57:03,103 --> 00:57:05,586
I just kept saying, "Deb,
just back off,
1011
00:57:06,068 --> 00:57:07,586
she's becoming crazier."
1012
00:57:08,413 --> 00:57:09,551
It was just too much.
1013
00:57:11,275 --> 00:57:13,689
Around a month
before the arrest took place,
1014
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:17,068
officers attended the home address
of Virginia McCullough.
1015
00:57:17,206 --> 00:57:19,006
Now, they'd gone there
in order to investigate
1016
00:57:19,103 --> 00:57:21,241
an alleged assault on her.
1017
00:57:21,482 --> 00:57:23,172
She invited the officers in.
1018
00:57:24,068 --> 00:57:25,108
The officer that attended,
1019
00:57:25,172 --> 00:57:28,862
whilst she didn't see
anything untoward,
1020
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:31,689
she would have carried out
house-to-house enquiries
1021
00:57:31,827 --> 00:57:34,862
in relation to the assault
that had taken place.
1022
00:57:35,586 --> 00:57:36,689
And a neighbour had said,
1023
00:57:36,931 --> 00:57:38,424
"Well, actually,
there's three people who live there,
1024
00:57:38,448 --> 00:57:41,931
but we haven't seen the old couple
for some considerable time."
1025
00:57:42,172 --> 00:57:44,482
She became very unhappy.
1026
00:57:44,827 --> 00:57:47,310
She said that the police had been
knocking on people's houses
1027
00:57:47,448 --> 00:57:50,379
and saying things like,
"Do you think Virginia's a nuisance?
1028
00:57:50,517 --> 00:57:53,206
Does she bother you? Do you want to
make a complaint about her?"
1029
00:57:53,413 --> 00:57:58,379
It seemed strange that she was
so obsessed with the police.
1030
00:58:07,965 --> 00:58:10,655
She just wouldn't let it go.
1031
00:58:11,137 --> 00:58:13,137
She was talking about a court case
1032
00:58:13,275 --> 00:58:15,482
that she was bringing
against the police.
1033
00:58:15,965 --> 00:58:18,206
And she'd even told me that
the police had told her
1034
00:58:18,344 --> 00:58:22,000
that if she'd kept calling,
they were going to arrest her.
1035
00:58:22,137 --> 00:58:25,034
If you had done what she'd done,
1036
00:58:25,172 --> 00:58:27,620
you'd want to be so far off
the police's radar
1037
00:58:27,758 --> 00:58:30,758
that you wouldn't even want them
to know that you were born.
1038
00:58:31,448 --> 00:58:35,172
I think she did want to be found out.
1039
00:58:35,310 --> 00:58:37,724
It's the only thing that kind of
makes any sense.
1040
00:58:38,275 --> 00:58:40,896
She must have known that there was
a knock on the door coming.
1041
00:58:51,517 --> 00:58:54,931
I had a call on the Tuesday
asking where my parents were,
1042
00:58:55,413 --> 00:58:57,103
and I said that they were away.
1043
00:58:57,241 --> 00:59:00,034
I knew that the officer was unhappy
with my answers.
1044
00:59:00,689 --> 00:59:01,724
On the Wednesday,
1045
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,000
police were knocking on windows
and doors.
1046
00:59:04,137 --> 00:59:06,310
They called out for me through
the letterbox.
1047
00:59:06,448 --> 00:59:07,586
I did not come to the door,
1048
00:59:07,931 --> 00:59:11,206
but I knew that the arrest was
fast approaching.
1049
00:59:12,724 --> 00:59:15,206
The last time I saw Ginny
was on a Thursday.
1050
00:59:15,517 --> 00:59:16,931
She spoke to one of my colleagues,
1051
00:59:17,068 --> 00:59:19,862
and she said that the police
were looking for her.
1052
00:59:20,413 --> 00:59:22,827
We didn't pay much attention to it
at the time.
1053
00:59:22,965 --> 00:59:26,000
But she did say to my colleague
that the police were after her
1054
00:59:26,137 --> 00:59:27,827
because she had murdered her parents.
1055
00:59:28,034 --> 00:59:29,068
You what?
1056
00:59:29,724 --> 00:59:30,896
And we just was all like,
1057
00:59:31,034 --> 00:59:34,275
"Oh, yeah, it's one of her sort of
fantasy stories
1058
00:59:34,413 --> 00:59:35,724
that she's coming out with."
1059
00:59:38,241 --> 00:59:41,206
On the Friday,
I heard thuds at the door.
1060
00:59:41,931 --> 00:59:45,310
Police were all over the garden
trying to see into the house.
1061
00:59:45,586 --> 00:59:49,172
I had to barely make a sound,
or they would know I was there.
1062
00:59:50,310 --> 00:59:53,586
On the Friday, my colleagues I was
working with at the time said to me,
1063
00:59:54,034 --> 00:59:55,344
"The police are round Ginny's."
1064
00:59:55,482 --> 00:59:57,275
So, I went flying around
there because
1065
00:59:57,413 --> 00:59:58,872
I thought something had
happened to her.
1066
00:59:58,896 --> 01:00:01,689
So, I managed to grab one
of the police officers there,
1067
01:00:01,827 --> 01:00:04,206
and I said, "Can you just tell me
if she's alright?"
1068
01:00:04,931 --> 01:00:07,371
And they said, "Yeah, she's alright,
but she won't let us in."
1069
01:00:07,448 --> 01:00:10,931
And I went, "So, she's okay,
but you're here to arrest her?"
1070
01:00:11,068 --> 01:00:12,068
And he goes, "Yeah."
1071
01:00:15,517 --> 01:00:17,103
She sent me a message,
1072
01:00:17,965 --> 01:00:20,068
that she thought she was gonna
be arrested.
1073
01:00:20,206 --> 01:00:23,206
The number you have
dialled is currently not available.
1074
01:00:23,344 --> 01:00:27,241
She sounded like,
"Oh, this is just an inconvenience.
1075
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:29,931
It'll all get sorted out,
you know..."
1076
01:00:30,448 --> 01:00:33,068
But it was the last communication.
1077
01:00:33,689 --> 01:00:35,275
I didn't hear from her again.
1078
01:00:35,896 --> 01:00:39,068
Please leave your
message after the tone.
1079
01:01:23,206 --> 01:01:26,000
I knew I would be arrested one day
and should be.
1080
01:01:26,517 --> 01:01:27,896
I knew I should be punished,
1081
01:01:28,034 --> 01:01:30,758
which is why I did not try and run
or leave.
1082
01:01:31,379 --> 01:01:35,000
I was relieved in a huge way
that the deception was over.
1083
01:01:35,758 --> 01:01:38,896
I was also relieved to welcome
what would take its course.
1084
01:01:39,413 --> 01:01:41,517
So, I told the police
plenty of information
1085
01:01:41,655 --> 01:01:43,172
to help the investigation,
1086
01:01:43,310 --> 01:01:45,827
and was trying to make things
easier for them.
1087
01:01:46,275 --> 01:01:48,517
I tried to open best I could.
1088
01:01:50,482 --> 01:01:52,413
After Virginia
was arrested
1089
01:01:52,551 --> 01:01:54,620
and taken to the police station,
1090
01:01:55,551 --> 01:01:57,793
I'm not sure that the officers
were prepared
1091
01:01:57,931 --> 01:02:00,275
for the regurgitation of information
1092
01:02:00,793 --> 01:02:02,275
that Virginia supplied to them.
1093
01:02:02,413 --> 01:02:06,586
The fact is, she was quite happy
to deliver all of this information
1094
01:02:06,724 --> 01:02:08,793
about the way
that she killed her parents.
1095
01:02:08,931 --> 01:02:11,103
She almost vomited
the information to them.
1096
01:02:40,241 --> 01:02:42,689
It's a very, very rare occurrence
1097
01:02:42,827 --> 01:02:45,310
for somebody to make
that type of confession.
1098
01:02:45,793 --> 01:02:47,344
It's incredible.
1099
01:03:00,275 --> 01:03:03,689
From my point of view,
what this actually says about her
1100
01:03:03,827 --> 01:03:07,137
is that she is a controlling,
coercive individual,
1101
01:03:07,275 --> 01:03:09,862
that she knows what she's doing.
1102
01:03:16,482 --> 01:03:19,172
The fact is she's trying to portray
herself as being compassionate,
1103
01:03:19,310 --> 01:03:21,827
but she's not compassionate.
She's cold-hearted.
1104
01:03:22,448 --> 01:03:26,137
I suspect that Virginia took
great pleasure
1105
01:03:26,275 --> 01:03:29,000
in describing the way in which
she had murdered
1106
01:03:29,137 --> 01:03:30,689
in particular her mother.
1107
01:03:47,965 --> 01:03:52,931
The description that Virginia
gave is quite frankly appalling.
1108
01:03:54,206 --> 01:03:57,172
One of the most shocking aspects
is the amount of planning.
1109
01:03:57,310 --> 01:03:59,482
We know she started to plan it
from about March.
1110
01:03:59,620 --> 01:04:02,896
She started to stockpile
her own prescription medicine.
1111
01:04:03,206 --> 01:04:05,793
She researched on the internet
1112
01:04:05,931 --> 01:04:08,068
the effects that that would have had
on people.
1113
01:04:08,206 --> 01:04:12,965
She even tried it out on her parents
in small doses over several occasions
1114
01:04:13,103 --> 01:04:15,379
to see the effect it would have
on them.
1115
01:04:15,827 --> 01:04:20,172
We now know that John died
from prescription medication.
1116
01:04:20,689 --> 01:04:23,724
You can imagine how horrific
it must have been for him
1117
01:04:23,862 --> 01:04:26,379
thinking he was maybe falling ill.
1118
01:04:26,655 --> 01:04:31,379
But then you also wonder was there
any point that he asked himself,
1119
01:04:31,517 --> 01:04:32,717
why this was happening to him?
1120
01:04:32,896 --> 01:04:37,137
And I think that is a difficult
visual image to have.
1121
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:41,482
I used the fact my father
had a drinking problem
1122
01:04:41,620 --> 01:04:44,931
to poison his drinks
with a cocktail of drugs.
1123
01:04:45,586 --> 01:04:47,896
And I found him laying on his bed,
1124
01:04:48,586 --> 01:04:50,068
and he had passed away.
1125
01:04:51,034 --> 01:04:52,754
We then heard
she had also intended
1126
01:04:52,827 --> 01:04:54,931
to kill her mother the same way,
1127
01:04:55,068 --> 01:04:59,103
but the quantities used
hadn't quite been sufficient.
1128
01:04:59,862 --> 01:05:04,931
So, she told the police she'd got
a knife and stabbed her mother.
1129
01:05:06,896 --> 01:05:09,586
I did try and kill both of my parents
with drugs.
1130
01:05:11,413 --> 01:05:13,413
One worked, and one did not.
1131
01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:19,275
I'd given less drugs to my mother.
1132
01:05:20,034 --> 01:05:23,551
I quietly went into the doorway
and found her.
1133
01:05:24,241 --> 01:05:27,241
As it turned out,
she was in a deep sleep.
1134
01:05:28,689 --> 01:05:30,448
I pulled the door back closed again
1135
01:05:30,586 --> 01:05:34,482
and went to get gloves,
a knife, and a hammer.
1136
01:05:36,517 --> 01:05:39,482
I went back in, and she was
facing away from me.
1137
01:05:40,517 --> 01:05:44,344
I hesitated,
and then I carried out the act.
1138
01:05:48,620 --> 01:05:50,482
"I went back in
with the hammer."
1139
01:05:50,689 --> 01:05:52,310
She just looked so innocent.
1140
01:05:52,724 --> 01:05:55,551
"I hit a little at the side around
the top of the cranium."
1141
01:05:58,862 --> 01:06:00,793
"I wasn't even hitting her properly.
1142
01:06:01,482 --> 01:06:04,482
I was hitting like someone
playing the xylophone badly.
1143
01:06:04,965 --> 01:06:06,448
I didn't want her to suffer.
1144
01:06:06,758 --> 01:06:09,724
I wanted her to pass quickly
like my father."
1145
01:06:14,517 --> 01:06:17,344
It's difficult to read these notes
without feeling some pain
1146
01:06:17,482 --> 01:06:20,827
and putting yourself in the room
of the victim.
1147
01:06:21,068 --> 01:06:24,413
These good people went through
some unspeakable pain.
1148
01:06:26,241 --> 01:06:28,068
It's awful.
It doesn't bear thinking about.
1149
01:06:28,206 --> 01:06:32,344
It was a cold, calculated act.
1150
01:06:32,551 --> 01:06:37,172
And she quite openly admitted
that she has done this.
1151
01:06:37,310 --> 01:06:40,172
No one person could get
inside the mind of a murderer
1152
01:06:40,310 --> 01:06:43,206
despite all these
self-professed experts.
1153
01:06:43,655 --> 01:06:46,586
But the fact is,
she is a cold-hearted killer.
1154
01:06:46,724 --> 01:06:49,413
She is bad. Not mad.
1155
01:06:49,655 --> 01:06:51,448
She knows exactly what she's doing.
1156
01:06:55,344 --> 01:06:58,068
I think it's fair to say
the people that knew Virginia
1157
01:06:58,206 --> 01:07:01,172
thought that there was something
a little bit odd about her
1158
01:07:01,310 --> 01:07:02,103
and her behaviour.
1159
01:07:02,241 --> 01:07:04,241
But as a forensic psychiatrist,
1160
01:07:04,379 --> 01:07:06,965
I can categorically say
that that is not the same
1161
01:07:07,103 --> 01:07:09,482
as having a severe mental illness
1162
01:07:09,620 --> 01:07:11,758
that might affect your culpability.
1163
01:07:12,172 --> 01:07:15,517
The very fact that Virginia
had pre-planned
1164
01:07:16,034 --> 01:07:18,068
both murders quite effectively,
1165
01:07:18,482 --> 01:07:19,896
is a strong indication to me
1166
01:07:20,034 --> 01:07:21,758
that she knew exactly
what she was doing.
1167
01:07:22,448 --> 01:07:25,862
We know that she stockpiled
her own medication to use as poison.
1168
01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:28,965
She actually physically went to
get a knife to use.
1169
01:07:29,448 --> 01:07:31,310
So, it's somebody that's
got forethought.
1170
01:07:46,931 --> 01:07:49,724
What the forensic psychiatrist
is really looking for
1171
01:07:49,931 --> 01:07:52,379
is symptoms of potential
mental illness
1172
01:07:52,517 --> 01:07:55,965
to see if this affects
their criminal culpability or not.
1173
01:07:56,103 --> 01:07:58,551
And the patients that
meet this threshold
1174
01:07:58,689 --> 01:08:02,689
usually have very intense,
life-changing symptoms
1175
01:08:02,827 --> 01:08:05,862
like hearing voices
or paranoid delusions,
1176
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:08,000
and they're out of touch of reality.
1177
01:08:08,931 --> 01:08:12,344
But in this case,
after psychiatric evaluation,
1178
01:08:12,482 --> 01:08:15,620
the court experts determined
that Virginia
1179
01:08:15,758 --> 01:08:19,379
didn't meet the threshold
for diminished responsibility.
1180
01:08:19,517 --> 01:08:23,517
Which, in layman's terms, means that
she didn't have a mental impairment.
1181
01:08:48,068 --> 01:08:50,344
An Essex woman
who's previously admitted
1182
01:08:50,482 --> 01:08:51,655
murdering her parents
1183
01:08:52,034 --> 01:08:54,594
after their bodies were found at
the family home in Great Baddow
1184
01:08:54,724 --> 01:08:57,689
is due to be sentenced
at Chelmsford Crown Court today.
1185
01:08:58,724 --> 01:09:03,379
The atmosphere in the courtroom
was one of mostly anticipation,
1186
01:09:03,517 --> 01:09:07,862
but also wonder as to what details
we're about to hear.
1187
01:09:08,172 --> 01:09:10,758
There was just a hush amongst people
1188
01:09:10,896 --> 01:09:13,241
as they were waiting for
the judge to arrive,
1189
01:09:13,379 --> 01:09:16,448
and also, for Virginia to be brought
into the secure dock.
1190
01:09:17,620 --> 01:09:20,862
I was called into court
and simply asked to state my name,
1191
01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:23,310
and yes to a couple of statements.
1192
01:09:23,827 --> 01:09:26,931
Then details of the case
were read out by the prosecution.
1193
01:09:37,241 --> 01:09:40,206
We could see up close
every movement,
1194
01:09:40,344 --> 01:09:43,068
every twitch of emotion from Virginia
1195
01:09:43,206 --> 01:09:46,448
as all of the details of the case
were read to the court.
1196
01:09:47,172 --> 01:09:50,206
For the vast majority
of the sentencing hearing,
1197
01:09:50,344 --> 01:09:53,655
Virginia didn't show
any sort of emotion
1198
01:09:53,862 --> 01:09:56,689
apart from when there were some
finer details being read
1199
01:09:56,827 --> 01:09:59,758
about the methods in which
she'd killed her mother.
1200
01:10:00,103 --> 01:10:01,827
The evidence that I heard
in the morning
1201
01:10:01,965 --> 01:10:05,310
surrounding my mother's death
made me cry in court.
1202
01:10:06,517 --> 01:10:08,517
I know how wrong what I did was,
1203
01:10:08,758 --> 01:10:11,896
and I'm guilty and remorseful
for this.
1204
01:10:12,586 --> 01:10:17,379
But it is something that is very hard
to go over emotionally.
1205
01:10:17,517 --> 01:10:23,034
These really were very graphic
details that we heard in sentencing.
1206
01:10:23,827 --> 01:10:27,379
But we also heard about
what her motivation had been.
1207
01:10:28,379 --> 01:10:30,448
The evidence presented in court
1208
01:10:30,586 --> 01:10:35,310
painted a picture of a very
manipulative and devious woman.
1209
01:10:35,793 --> 01:10:37,310
During this investigation,
1210
01:10:37,448 --> 01:10:40,793
there had been those who thought
perhaps her upbringing
1211
01:10:40,931 --> 01:10:42,068
may have played a part.
1212
01:10:43,172 --> 01:10:46,034
But it became clear that
the prosecution
1213
01:10:46,172 --> 01:10:50,172
were focusing on a financial motive
for this crime.
1214
01:11:12,034 --> 01:11:14,586
The motivation in relation
to this murder
1215
01:11:14,724 --> 01:11:17,793
from my point of view, is money.
1216
01:11:18,551 --> 01:11:23,103
Her whole aim was to obtain money
from her dead parents.
1217
01:11:23,586 --> 01:11:27,034
She needed to get them out of the way
in order to maintain a lifestyle
1218
01:11:27,172 --> 01:11:28,724
that she'd become accustomed to
1219
01:11:28,862 --> 01:11:31,379
through her gambling
and lifestyle in general.
1220
01:11:32,241 --> 01:11:36,517
Now anybody that would
kill a family member
1221
01:11:36,724 --> 01:11:38,000
for their pension
1222
01:11:39,034 --> 01:11:41,482
is a very, very evil person.
1223
01:11:55,758 --> 01:11:59,758
Understandably, Virginia's siblings
don't want public attention.
1224
01:12:00,275 --> 01:12:02,724
So, they're protected
by a court order,
1225
01:12:02,862 --> 01:12:06,103
which is a legal ruling
that their identities
1226
01:12:06,241 --> 01:12:07,793
shouldn't be uncovered.
1227
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:12,275
But at the same time,
they wanted to submit statements
1228
01:12:12,413 --> 01:12:14,172
that could be read out in court.
1229
01:12:15,137 --> 01:12:18,137
It is impossible to describe
the prolonged pain
1230
01:12:18,275 --> 01:12:20,000
Virginia has inflicted.
1231
01:12:20,344 --> 01:12:24,068
It is impossible to process such
a senseless crime.
1232
01:12:24,586 --> 01:12:28,344
Virginia's prolific lies, laziness,
and greed
1233
01:12:28,551 --> 01:12:32,241
are such senseless reasons
for killing our parents.
1234
01:12:32,586 --> 01:12:35,896
Virginia's siblings have been through
two tragedies, really.
1235
01:12:36,034 --> 01:12:38,068
There's the horrific death
of their parents,
1236
01:12:38,206 --> 01:12:41,620
and then just having to appreciate
and understand
1237
01:12:41,758 --> 01:12:43,724
that it was caused by
their own sister,
1238
01:12:43,862 --> 01:12:45,896
and her general web of deceit.
1239
01:12:49,482 --> 01:12:51,172
One of the things revealed
at sentencing
1240
01:12:51,310 --> 01:12:55,103
is the fact that Virginia had tried
to make sure that the family
1241
01:12:55,241 --> 01:12:59,103
are unable to maintain any form
of communication
1242
01:12:59,241 --> 01:13:02,000
with their nearest and dearest.
1243
01:13:02,448 --> 01:13:05,413
It became quite clear
during sentencing
1244
01:13:05,551 --> 01:13:09,655
that Virginia was ruthless
in her deception.
1245
01:13:10,482 --> 01:13:13,655
She pretended to be her mother
and her father.
1246
01:13:13,793 --> 01:13:18,482
She sent numerous texts to people
trying to rebuff any visits.
1247
01:13:18,931 --> 01:13:20,620
She's contacted her siblings.
1248
01:13:20,758 --> 01:13:23,379
She's texted using her mother's name.
1249
01:13:24,034 --> 01:13:26,241
She's hoodwinked her
uncle, her auntie.
1250
01:13:26,689 --> 01:13:30,965
The court heard that she had 145
separate SIM cards
1251
01:13:31,103 --> 01:13:33,413
with which she used to message
her sisters,
1252
01:13:33,551 --> 01:13:35,344
and also other relatives as well.
1253
01:13:35,482 --> 01:13:39,379
The very sad thing for her sisters
was that these messages
1254
01:13:39,724 --> 01:13:43,137
would suggest that John and Lois
no longer wanted to see them.
1255
01:13:43,344 --> 01:13:45,448
That must have been absolutely awful.
1256
01:13:46,068 --> 01:13:48,241
In a sinister twist to this case,
1257
01:13:48,379 --> 01:13:52,724
Virginia pretended to be her mother
by making a phone call
1258
01:13:52,862 --> 01:13:54,655
to one of her siblings.
1259
01:13:55,620 --> 01:13:59,482
She altered her voice sufficiently
to convince her sibling
1260
01:13:59,724 --> 01:14:01,586
that she was Lois.
1261
01:14:03,000 --> 01:14:05,620
Virginia had pretended to be
my parents
1262
01:14:05,758 --> 01:14:10,137
and communicated with me in that role
on almost a daily basis.
1263
01:14:10,620 --> 01:14:14,000
This grotesque intrusion
is made incredibly painful
1264
01:14:14,137 --> 01:14:15,896
by the messages sent to me,
1265
01:14:16,034 --> 01:14:19,793
purporting to be my parents,
that were at times hurtful.
1266
01:14:20,827 --> 01:14:24,000
This and the ridiculous excuses
for not seeing me
1267
01:14:24,137 --> 01:14:27,448
left me with the feeling of being
unvalued as their child,
1268
01:14:27,655 --> 01:14:30,379
that my own parents didn't
want to see me.
1269
01:14:31,344 --> 01:14:35,000
To have been manipulated
and deceived so significantly
1270
01:14:35,137 --> 01:14:38,724
and in such a prolonged way,
has been truly shocking.
1271
01:14:40,344 --> 01:14:42,384
When you're listening
to all of these details,
1272
01:14:42,413 --> 01:14:47,034
it's difficult not to feel shocked
by the manipulation
1273
01:14:47,172 --> 01:14:48,655
that she embarked on.
1274
01:14:48,793 --> 01:14:52,241
You can't imagine what the family
will have been going through
1275
01:14:52,551 --> 01:14:53,689
to experience that,
1276
01:14:53,827 --> 01:14:57,862
and to have been led on such
a journey of lies.
1277
01:14:58,551 --> 01:15:02,000
Virginia lied repeatedly
over such a long period of time,
1278
01:15:02,344 --> 01:15:05,344
but Virginia's siblings'
statements corroborated
1279
01:15:05,482 --> 01:15:07,793
some of what Virginia was saying,
1280
01:15:08,137 --> 01:15:10,068
their mother did have
mental health issues,
1281
01:15:10,206 --> 01:15:13,137
and their father did have problems
with alcohol.
1282
01:15:13,275 --> 01:15:17,965
However, one thing that appears to be
categorically contradicted
1283
01:15:18,275 --> 01:15:21,689
is whether or not Virginia
was physically abused.
1284
01:15:23,620 --> 01:15:26,586
Virginia had the audacity
to lie even more
1285
01:15:26,724 --> 01:15:30,862
and try to accuse our parents
of behaving in the most awful way,
1286
01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:32,620
which is totally untrue.
1287
01:15:33,517 --> 01:15:35,586
Her lies about the whole family
1288
01:15:35,724 --> 01:15:39,103
are a disgusting,
untrue misrepresentation.
1289
01:15:40,413 --> 01:15:44,137
Virginia seemed to be very
keen to place herself as the victim.
1290
01:15:44,448 --> 01:15:48,137
But when there is physical abuse
or domestic violence,
1291
01:15:48,344 --> 01:15:51,275
often there is a trail of evidence.
1292
01:15:51,482 --> 01:15:52,586
But as far as we're aware,
1293
01:15:52,793 --> 01:15:55,862
there is no such police record
within this family.
1294
01:15:56,310 --> 01:15:57,827
And to me, this is really important
1295
01:15:57,965 --> 01:16:01,793
because that kind of underpins
all of Virginia's reasoning
1296
01:16:01,931 --> 01:16:04,000
and explanation of what she did.
1297
01:16:05,896 --> 01:16:09,482
I was not trapped physically
but was emotionally trapped.
1298
01:16:10,586 --> 01:16:13,482
The problems were behind closed doors
at Pump Hill.
1299
01:16:14,310 --> 01:16:16,344
My siblings had their
own lives to live,
1300
01:16:16,586 --> 01:16:20,965
and there was no one else behind me
to support or give respite.
1301
01:16:22,931 --> 01:16:26,965
But I chose myself over
my parents wrongfully.
1302
01:16:29,586 --> 01:16:33,000
Having read the multiple
letters that Virginia wrote,
1303
01:16:33,517 --> 01:16:37,482
it feels like she's trying to
gain sympathy from the public.
1304
01:16:39,206 --> 01:16:41,310
The profile that I'm
building of Virginia
1305
01:16:41,448 --> 01:16:44,551
is that she's willing to do
almost anything
1306
01:16:44,862 --> 01:16:46,448
for her own motivations.
1307
01:16:47,448 --> 01:16:50,068
And the court experts determined
1308
01:16:50,206 --> 01:16:53,724
that Virginia had
a neurodevelopmental disorder,
1309
01:16:53,862 --> 01:16:56,000
as well as traits of psychopathy.
1310
01:16:57,068 --> 01:16:59,586
In terms of the psychopathic traits,
1311
01:16:59,793 --> 01:17:02,206
this would include a lack of empathy,
1312
01:17:02,689 --> 01:17:05,034
not caring about the rights
of other people,
1313
01:17:05,310 --> 01:17:08,034
impulsivity, criminal versatility,
1314
01:17:08,172 --> 01:17:10,931
and also being quite cunning
and manipulative.
1315
01:17:11,448 --> 01:17:15,310
And it's the psychopathic traits
that drove her to kill her parents.
1316
01:17:34,586 --> 01:17:36,896
When I heard 36 years being read out,
1317
01:17:37,206 --> 01:17:39,068
I told the lady next
to me in the dock
1318
01:17:39,206 --> 01:17:41,758
that I should have got life
without parole.
1319
01:17:42,586 --> 01:17:45,241
Not only do I think I deserved
life without parole,
1320
01:17:45,482 --> 01:17:48,482
but felt that even that
was not punishment enough
1321
01:17:48,620 --> 01:17:51,931
to ease my guilt or remorse
even mildly.
1322
01:17:54,172 --> 01:17:57,689
I have made so many mistakes
in my life through deception,
1323
01:17:58,034 --> 01:18:00,689
secrecy, and self-sabotage.
1324
01:18:01,344 --> 01:18:04,586
The worst of all is the crime that
I killed my parents.
1325
01:18:07,379 --> 01:18:08,965
I wish my siblings healing,
1326
01:18:09,103 --> 01:18:11,344
and I'm glad that they
have each other.
1327
01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:15,068
I hope that in time they are all able
to be happy again
1328
01:18:15,379 --> 01:18:18,551
and be a closer family than it was
when I was part of it.
1329
01:18:19,482 --> 01:18:21,862
I will try and be a better person
in prison
1330
01:18:22,068 --> 01:18:23,620
and make a life of sorts.
1331
01:18:24,655 --> 01:18:27,068
I've been here for one year
and four months,
1332
01:18:27,344 --> 01:18:29,551
and I'm happier and more myself
in prison
1333
01:18:29,689 --> 01:18:32,379
than I was able to be around people
on the outside
1334
01:18:32,517 --> 01:18:33,758
and my family.
1335
01:18:35,758 --> 01:18:37,965
I also thank you
for reading this letter.
1336
01:18:38,896 --> 01:18:41,241
Kind regards, Virginia.
1337
01:18:46,103 --> 01:18:47,965
I can't get round my head
1338
01:18:48,103 --> 01:18:52,275
that somebody would do what she did
1339
01:18:54,034 --> 01:18:55,482
for some pensions
1340
01:18:56,206 --> 01:18:58,000
and for a little bit of money,
1341
01:18:58,137 --> 01:19:01,793
it just doesn't make sense to me.
1342
01:19:05,241 --> 01:19:07,827
I have for a long time thought about
1343
01:19:07,965 --> 01:19:10,034
were we really friends, you know?
1344
01:19:10,586 --> 01:19:16,344
Because she was living
this other life
1345
01:19:17,068 --> 01:19:21,586
trying to divert everybody away from
what really was going on.
1346
01:19:24,551 --> 01:19:26,034
But I hear she's happy,
1347
01:19:27,137 --> 01:19:28,448
and she's flourishing.
1348
01:19:31,241 --> 01:19:32,344
And I'm glad,
1349
01:19:33,000 --> 01:19:38,000
because I think it's probably
the right environment for her.
1350
01:19:39,965 --> 01:19:42,827
It's the peace that she
said she wanted,
1351
01:19:43,793 --> 01:19:45,344
and I'm glad she's got that.